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Organoids and a large portion of Chips!
The WORC.Community podcast and also watch (at WORC.Community) the free to join network for organoid, organ-on-a-chip & NAM researchers. Join Professors Marianna Kruithof-de Julio, University of Bern and Steven Ray Haakon Wilson, University of Oslo talking all things organoid and organ-on-a-chip! Contact us with your questions. Watch video at https://www.worc.community/channels/5753
Organoids and a large portion of Chips!
WOMEN in STEM an Organoids & a large portion of Chips! SPECIAL
Recorded LIVE in front of an audience.. (a first for us!!) at WORD+2025!
What a line up!
Hosted by Prof Marianna and Prof Steven they are joined by an extraordinary panel of leaders in Organoid and Chip research. They are:
- Prof Hazel Screen, Head of School of Engineering & Materials Science, Queen Mary University London.
- Dr Mhairi Morrris- Senior Lecturer (Biochemistry), exercise oncology research, University of Loughborough.
- Associate Professor and company CSO Heidi Haikala- Tampere University, Uni of Helsinki and Solid IO.
- Dr Meritxell B Cutona, Head of platform, Patient-derived organoids for precision cancer medicine, Gustave Roussy.
- Dr Luana Ferrara- Head of R&D and Collaborations, Qkine Limited.
- Ms Carlotta Frascolla, Istituto Nazionale Tumori Regina Elena.
What if the most significant advancements in science come from unexpected turns and serendipitous encounters? In our special live episode from Cambridge, in honour of the International Day of Women and Girls in Science, we bring together an extraordinary panel of women who have carved inspiring paths in the world of research. From Heidi Haikala's groundbreaking work on overcoming lung cancer therapy resistance to Mhairi Morris's exploration of how exercise can prevent breast cancer, these remarkable scientists share their transformative journeys and the pivotal moments that shaped their careers.
Embracing the non-linear paths so often encountered in the sciences, we dive into the critical role of mentorship in building confidence and driving innovation. Our guests reveal personal stories of mentors who believed in them before they believed in themselves, emphasizing the reciprocal nature of mentorship and its profound impact on their work. With candor and authenticity, they discuss how embracing unexpected opportunities and building supportive networks can redefine career trajectories, offering invaluable lessons for those aspiring to make their mark in science.
Finally, we confront the challenges of diversity, inclusion, and bias in STEM fields. Our conversation underscores the importance of frameworks like the Athena Swan guidelines, highlights the necessity of visible female leadership, and tackles the pervasive issue of work-life balance. Through personal anecdotes and practical insights, we shed light on the biases faced by women in science and the ongoing efforts to create a more inclusive and supportive environment. Tune into this episode to be inspired by the incredible journeys of these pioneering women and their relentless pursuit of scientific excellence.
Sponsored by MDPI Organoids. Join our special edition here.
'Organoid and Organ-on-a-Chip Research Advances in 2025!'
The articles submitted can be detailed, with the minimum of a title, abstract, summary of the methods, key discussion points and conclusions. Our editorial team will also be at the conference to provide further information about this Special Issue. Please provide references as needed, and visual and graphical representations are very welcome. Your work is invaluable and sharing only strengthens our research community. If you have questions, please let us know and we will happily help.
So welcome everybody to this very special podcast episode of organoids and a large portion of chips. This is truly a special podcast, as we are hosting it for the first time live here in Cambridge and in the spirit of International Day of Women and Girls in Science, which took place during this conference. So my name is Stephen Ray Wilson, I am a professor at the University of Oslo and I will be hosting this special episode with Professor Mariana Kratov de Julio. Thank you.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So thank you very much, especially for pronouncing my name correctly for once. So that was good. So we are here with a group of lovely ladies in science, and I will let each one of them introduce themselves. So please go ahead.
Heidi Haikala:Hello everybody. I'm Heidi Haikala. I'm an assistant professor and a group leader in the University of Helsinki and Tampere University. Our group studies lung cancer therapy resistance and I'm also a co-founder in a company called Solidio, which is focusing on bringing personalised cancer care for patients.
Mhairi Morris:Good morning everyone. My name is Mhairi Morris and I'm a senior lecturer at Loughborough University. I teach cancer biology and my research is in how exercise can prevent breast cancer from spreading. We're trying to develop a 3D model for modelling the obesogenic tumour microenvironment and breast cancer.
Hazel Screen:Morning everyone. My name is Hazel Screen. I'm a professor of biomedical engineering at Queen Mary University of London. My sort of research area is really around looking at mechanobiology and understanding some of the physical environment that we need to put into CHI chips, and I co-direct the Centre for Predictive In Vitro Models at Queen Mary.
Meritxell B Cutona:Good morning. My name is Meritxell Cutrona and I am the head of the organoid core facility at Gustave Roussy Institute in France. I am a cell biologist by formation and my interest are those to combine high content screening with the organoid technology and in particular the patient-derived organoids, to profile chemical resistance and to, in fact, find new cures.
Carlotta Frascolla:Good morning. I'm Carlotta Frascolla. I'm a PhD student at the Reginald International Cancer Institute in Rome and I study blood cancer, especially through the duration of passion-derived organoids. We test personalized therapies and we focused on the characterization of these videos and the method tissues and I'm the head of RMD and collaboration at Kikine.
Luana Ferrara:My background is in biochemistry and structural biology so I use my knowledge of structure and protein to lead a team and produce growth factor and cytokines Help hopefully help these people to do their research.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So, ladies, thank you very much for joining us so early in the morning and for giving this really nice outline of who you are and what you do in science. But you know, this whole podcast is about women in science and also how we, as women, approach our career. So I wanted to start with asking Mhairi maybe Luanna a question, and that would be what inspired you to pursue this career in science and how is it that you chose your specific field? So maybe Bari, okay.
Mhairi Morris:So I think, looking back, there were clues. When I was seven my mum bought me my first microscope for my birthday and I loved it. It had little slides with bits of insect wings and stuff, so I think I got an early induction into science. But actually I was destined to go and study physics at university until my final year of high school and then I did a crash course in biology. Loved it so much I ditched physics and immediately about turned and went and studied medical biochemistry.
Mhairi Morris:My PhD I chose purely because I was interested in cell signaling and actually I wasn't even meant to be working on cancer. It was an accident, if you like. So when I first started at Birmingham, my supervisor was on holiday, so. So he said he was actually being headhunted and he came back after a couple of weeks and announced he was leaving. So I got plucked out of his group and dropped into another group and worked on virus-associated cancer. So it was pure accident or maybe it was fate, I don't know that I ended up working in cancer biology and then when I came to Loughborough, it was a case of trying to find something that was linked to sport and or exercise, and that's where I ended up.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Lovely Such a particular kind of view of cancer study associating the cancer with the sport and the exercise. I think it's extremely interesting.
Mhairi Morris:It opened up a whole new world for me. I had no idea how powerful it is um, so yeah yeah, very interesting.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:And uh, what was your path to science?
Luana Ferrara:so, very simply, I'm. I liked um studying science at school. So that's when I said, okay, that this can be something I can actually spend my life doing. But I didn't necessarily know since the beginning what to do. I remember that I got given not a microscope but a telescope when I was in middle school and I said that was so fantastic so I thought maybe I can do a bit of astronomy. But then physics wasn't really my thing, so maybe that's not my real calling.
Luana Ferrara:And I started to enter the university, the Faculty of Medicine, and I remember studying so hard and I got a position there. That was, you know, it's very hard, especially in Italy, to get a position there. And then when I started I realized but I don't want to be a doctor, and there was a such a pivoted time and a moment in my life because was first a very big failure for me because I decided that that's not my path, I need to change it. But I perceived that as a big failure because there was the first time I didn't know what to do. And then I took some time off and said, okay, let's go back to the beginning, what you actually want to do, you want to be in science. Okay, maybe it's not hospital you want to be, it's a lab. I said that's where I trained and I started over.
Luana Ferrara:I went to university and the faculty of biotechnology and then when I started, you know, learning about biology and biochemistry okay, biochemistry is what I want to do. And then it went quite smoothly, I want to say. But there was the moment where I got the lost and I really didn't know what to do. And there's just, you know, some money to the people. That sometimes not the linear your path, but that doesn't mean you have to just give up.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:But now you know, I still see the point is a bit of a dark point in my life, to be honest, but I wouldn't do it any other way if you brought me to extremely interesting how a path that starts in a certain way moves and shifts and takes you at the end to where you are and, I suppose, to a happy place, where you are right now so it's quite fascinating.
Luana Ferrara:Well, what doesn't kill you make make you stronger, right. But there was a lot of crying and a lot of like, oh my god. And for someone like me that always had a plan, not having one was a very tangible moment. And now I make plan, but I know that they may not plan out, and that's fine. I handle changes much, much better, and that was a tangible moment, lovely.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So, if I can bounce off of this and maybe switch to a question to Carlotta, maybe. And so we've heard how paths in life can lead to different ways and you can start one way and then maybe decide well, maybe this is not what I want to do, but what do you see? What do you see your steps in science being? Because you're such at an early phase of your career now, so you have everything open in front of you, right?
Carlotta Frascolla:Well, right now, as I said, I'm doing my PhD and I study blood cancer through patient-led organs, and even if it is a very challenging disease and Mariana knows something about this I really love what I do and I would like to in future, keep working in cancer research, hopefully getting some experiences abroad to new, different approaches, new techniques and broadened my knowledge and experiences. And so, who knows, someday maybe I will have my own research group.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Absolutely. That would be fantastic. I do see you set for that sort of career. So, yes, I can see that happening as a young scientist. For you to become a junior PI first and have your own group. But maybe, Heidi, if I can ask you, so, having such a young person here in the audience with us and with this career path that's starting to pave its way, what would your advices be for her and what specific steps would you recommend? Somebody that's just starting her career in science, and especially being a female in science? What would you recommend for her?
Heidi Haikala:So it looks like Carlotta knows what she wants to do in life, but I've maybe give advice if you don't yet know. So if you're uncertain, like if you want to pursue a career in science or you want to do something else, my advice would be always like try to find a way to try something, so go out there and explore. So, for example, if you want to work in a lab, find an internship. If you want to teach, try to assist in a course. Or if you want to work in the industry, maybe try to find some part-time thing from there. And that way you can probably find eventually the thing that you want to do, at least at that moment.
Heidi Haikala:And then, kind of once you find that thing at least for me, like how it kind of went when you find that thing, then push as hard as you can and then also like, believe in yourself, because that's kind of almost like blind belief will then like carry you through a lot of hardships and tough moments, because science is not always easy, especially as a female. So, and just trust when you know what you want to do, trust in it, and it will carry you really far, and I think, especially for a female, you might have some hardships, people might doubt you a little bit more maybe, especially when you're maybe younger and less accomplished. Like you might encounter some, some issues, so so, but I think that kind of confidence will carry you, carry you.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Hazel, would you like to maybe jump in on this a little bit?
Hazel Screen:Yeah, I think perhaps I was thinking about the word confidence across the board and thinking a little bit about that career path. And I often see, when you talk to some of the sort of young women coming through in science and you compare them with the men, the women often have this quite clear set out pathway that they've tried to define and I think some of that might sit in this confidence that wanting to sort of know where you're going, and it rarely does work out, does it? I think that's what we've all concluded. I think nobody has anyone here?
Hazel Screen:sat on the linear pathway and absolutely gone step to step. No, there's a surprise. It doesn't happen like that and typically the opportunities arise and we learn and we grow and what might feel like a real swipe and a change of direction and frightening at the time can be hugely positive and open up new avenues. And there's something about the confidence to embrace that and to be ready to follow that path as you go along, I think. And then the opposite side to that, you said you know if you're coming into science and you're getting ready and you're perhaps thinking about the first conference and where you go confidence again, how do you build that to get into the room and start to talk to people? The point at which you don't become a bit sort of stuck and feeling gosh, it's my first conference is when you get to know people.
Hazel Screen:And this was my trick and it took me a long time to work this out the only difference between me when I was first at a conference as an early PhD student and me now as a professor, when I go to a conference, I happen to know most of the people because I've worked with them for 20 years. That's it. So if you can start to get to know a couple of people, you build that kind of confidence and settle into that environment. So how do you do that? So can you find a mentor, somebody you can go with, someone you can spend time with at that conference to just help you work out how to go and say hi to some people and start to build your own network? Yeah, absolutely.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:I think that's a very important piece of advice and I think that Carlota has embraced this very nicely last year when she literally haunted me down, but it actually paid off because we have a really nice collaboration and I think she really has a really great future.
Hazel Screen:How do you get that confidence to come and talk to you?
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Well, I think that probably came from the excellent supervision that she has in Italy with our professor. Yes, that's absolutely the case, so yeah.
Steven Wilson:Yeah, I was thinking also a little bit on that line. Also, on the topic of work and research, so many shows would like to ask you regarding mentorship have you have you ever had any experiences where a mentor has significantly impacted your career? Or have you have you found the way you know, the path by yourself? Like, how has the outside world in science shaped where your career has gone?
Hazel Screen:Who were you asking?
Steven Wilson:Oh, I was asking Mary-Cherry first. Ah, okay.
Meritxell B Cutona:No, in fact, it's very interesting what we heard so far, because in my experience in my own experience, in fact the path has been always not proceeding step by step, as it should do, theoretically speaking. And the point of finding the right mentorship, because sometimes it's not there. So you have to be very creative and you have to learn where to find inspiration or where to find the good, because sometimes the mentor is not directly your supervisor, unfortunately, and there are no means then to overcome this problem. So the only way that, for example, I have been utilizing is to find who will be inspirational in chairs of departments or also, at that level, of directors of institutions. When you find the right person that, in fact, can give you a voice, give you some chance, I always try to stick to these people. So it's probably not the way to go, because then you are improvising. It's just a way to survive.
Meritxell B Cutona:I would say and what I would like to add is that now, having a role of leadership, I'm trying to learn how I can be inspirational and a good leader or a good mentor for my people, and what I learn or what I try to apply is to listen, the needs or understand the needs of everyone and give their own space as well, because one of the most common mistakes is to try to reflect yourself on the others. So I don't try to do that. I try to see each personality and try to fit and integrate everyone, and it's a way, I would say, to try to provide the mentorship that maybe I have been lacking, and I think that that it is for everyone, male or female.
Steven Wilson:Yeah, very, very good points. I'm wondering do any of you others have any thoughts regarding mentors? I mean yes, heidi.
Heidi Haikala:I think some of the most significant people, at least in my career career, have been the people who like blindly believed in what I'm doing or me basically. Like before I like knew it myself. So it's like very hard to find those people, but it's like amazing when that happens to you, that something, somebody really can see kind of a vision of you in the future, and then they kind of support you and they can also help you then to kind of carry you through the hardships as well. So, and it doesn't have to be or I said like it doesn't have to be your pi or your immediate supervisor, it could be your, your friend, it could be your mother, it could be anybody right.
Mhairi Morris:But it's like very important to to have a couple of those people's like, especially during those hard, hard points of your career, who will then say like hey, wake up, you can do this so if you can, find that that is like like priceless I think also, I'd like to add that you get a lot out of mentoring other people as well, so you learn a lot when you are the person who's just that step ahead of the person before you, and it's a bit like being on an escalator and you're just reaching down to take the hand of the person on the step below you to help them up as you're looking up to the person above you and where you want to go and also being really, really proactive about it. I've had a few mentors in the past that maybe have just kind of fallen by the wayside because I've not been proactive, but I've got one at the moment who is fantastic, but I'm taking a different approach to it myself, like I'm being a lot more active and deliberate and intentional with the meetings that we have.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:How did you find them?
Mhairi Morris:She is well. She's now the Dean of the school, but she wasn't before. She was just somebody who I looked at and thought I want to be like you.
Hazel Screen:She leads with integrity and that's great, that's yeah meetings, everything isn't it. So, yes, so I'd add confidence again, because it's being, you know, confident to push for the, you know being proactive.
Hazel Screen:They probably won't contact you once a month and say you okay, yeah because, you know, it's just life is busy, but that doesn't mean they don't want to hear from you. So there's something about being, you know, ready and prepared to just check in. I think there's also something here in what can you get from everybody around you, even if they're not a mentor. And it's quite important to look at the people you see and ask you, just reflect, ask yourself what is it that you see, that they do, or how they speak, or that you think that's good? And then how can I take that and use it and build on it? So, even without having a kind of relationship with an individual to support you, you can really think about how to extract and learn from everyone you see around you and just build that kind of work chest of things that you can use and they don't have to be in your field either so my mentor does not work in the same area as me at all, and I learn so much from him.
Heidi Haikala:Maybe that goes kind of reversely also into leadership, that when you see some behaviors or something you don't like, then you can also learn from it Like at least I don't want to behave or be like that, so that can be inspirational as well.
Steven Wilson:Have you guys ever? Are there any specific things you've learned that you don't want to do? You know, I mean like, oh, you've seen something like I hope I don't be in that situation where I do that trick or say that.
Heidi Haikala:Well, yes, but I don't think I want to do that no.
Mhairi Morris:But yeah, no, I think the examples where I've felt that somebody hasn't supported me the way they could have been has just made me feel like I don't. Examples where I felt that somebody hasn't supported me the way they could have been has just made me feel like I don't. I I treat my students and my staff the way I want to be treated, and although I may have not had support in the past from certain people, that's not that I don't resent them at all. If anything, it makes me more independent and more able to do my own work. Um, so you learn. You learn something from every experience.
Hazel Screen:Yeah, sorry, so there's also something in there about not every personality type matches, and that's OK. So you know, you might find that somebody that you you know has said they'd be a mentor and work with you and they're lovely and they don't do anything that you think, oh gosh, but you just don't gel and that's fine. Everyone's different and it's important to sort of recognize that and see if you get something good out of the relationship or maybe it's worth finding somebody else. You can have those two start sort of different views and approaches.
Luana Ferrara:So it's, it's alright, yeah that's very important when you manage a team we need to learn that people are different and then they'll respond to the same kind of managerial style.
Luana Ferrara:So you need to change the way you talk to people. You ask for things to people according to their characteristics and the way they just react. There's not one style at all, and this is very important to keep in mind when you manage a team. You need to take the time to listen and to learn how they behave so you can empower them to be the best they can be.
Mhairi Morris:Just thinking about what you were saying about how somebody believed in you until you could believe in yourself. I think that comes back to how people remember how you make them feel. So that person obviously made you feel empowered and oh yeah, I can do this and maybe that's the secret ingredient.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So, on this note, do you think is there a difference between a male and a female mentor?
Mhairi Morris:Yes, but not in a good or a bad way. I think they bring different things. Yeah. In what way? Oh, good or a bad way? I think they bring different things. Yeah, in what way. I think men and this is a sweeping statement, isn't it? Men approach things in a different way to women. I think women tend to be and this is again being a very sweeping statement here more emotionally intelligent. I'm not saying that men aren't. I think men are better at compartmentalising things and we hold a lot, especially if you're a mother or have caring responsibilities for an elderly parent or something. Even if you have help and a really supportive other half, you still have the mental bandwidth of worrying about that child or the parent or whoever it is you're caring for, and I think, again, it's a stupid statement. Men are better at just separating that and going. I'm at work. I can ignore that just now, maybe. Yeah.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:But I think there's to learn from both, you know, in a way. So being a female having a female mentor, or being a male having a female mentor, or the other way around, I think you can see the world with the different eyes. You know what I mean and and if you're open to that, you can actually gain something from from it.
Heidi Haikala:So, yeah, and one thing I would want to kind of add to this discussion is also about the concept of kind of managing up. So we cannot always choose you know who we work with or and especially we cannot change other people. So in that sense you can still, for example, as a student since you cannot change how your supervisor behaves but you can kind of try to learn their behaviors and trying to like adapt to that the best of you that you can. It's not always optimal, but maybe it helps you also then in those tough moments to understand and maybe put yourself to their shoes and try to understand why they do something like they do. I think that's something that I wish sometimes I could have done better and what I've learned. Maybe on the way then I could have done better and what I've learned maybe on the way then.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So, speaking of things being done better, maybe, hazel, do you have any comments on how maybe the institutions and the industries could better support diversity and inclusion?
Hazel Screen:Yes, I think, something we talk about a lot. So I run a school of engineering and material science, so it's clearly key for us looking at how do we bring in more women to study and to academic posts in that area, and we talk a lot about how we drive adverts and put them out and encourage applications. I think the one thing that perhaps we've been talking about and recognise more than anything recently is having clear role models and just how important it is that what you reflect out and you show to the world just demonstrates the breadth of people and individuals you want to bring back in. So really spending some time thinking about that sort of literature, the way that you're advertising what's on the website, who who you're showcasing, just to make sure that those applicants that you want to apply can see themselves Because I think that's been the thing that's come through more and more as we work with students and talk a little bit about where they see concerns about coming into science it's like I can't see myself.
Hazel Screen:Where can I see myself at that next stage, and it's so important for us to reflect that and support that journey.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:I can see that, maritex, do you have any?
Meritxell B Cutona:other. Yeah, actually I think that it's also necessary to have the right framework that supports this. I'm thinking, for example, example, here in the UK you have the Athena Swan guidelines, let's say. In my experience in Ireland in fact I could also learn that because also in Ireland they apply the same principles and that framework really helps a lot because it's a way to have something more organized and formalized and not leaving the initiative to the individuals. I have to say that in other countries that I have could find to promote this stem and the integrity and the equality is to in fact adopting in all the countries a similar scheme. That will, in fact, really support the development on its whole as a community.
Luana Ferrara:I do agree with the need of having a framework and role models, but something we need to do is also having these role models and show these role models very early on in age.
Luana Ferrara:I think that's one of the problems that we start showing women and little girls like the opportunity that they have inside is a little bit too late when already the society has divided the two gender in categories where it's better to do that rather than that because you're a woman, or this job is better for you because you're a man. So we need to enter the, be a bit more forceful and show everybody that they can do anything, regardless of the gender, the ability or the, you know, ethnicity or whatever, but has to be done very early on so they don't get.
Hazel Screen:I'd agree with that and I think it's really important. But the other thing I think is interesting is our undergraduate population is 50% female. Our MSc, it's dropped by. Our PhD it's dropped even further. And there's something quite interesting in that and you go and talk to somebody coming out of an undergraduate degree and say, why are you thinking about an MSc or a PhD? Oh, it's not for me. And it's well why. And there's something to unpick in that about how we a start really young and start really saying, yes, science is for you. So everyone gets that microscope we talked about earlier. Or the telescope yeah, everyone has that at five um. But then how do we actually say no, really it's, you don't have to stop at this level. How do you keep working through and you can do this?
Mhairi Morris:I think also funding isn't, isn't it? I think a lot of women leave science because they get fed up of the three-year contracts. Another three-year contract, then they have a baby and they don't want that instability. They need something permanent.
Heidi Haikala:I think sometimes, like, those mindsets can start when you're very young we were just talking earlier that example I always thought that, like I thought till I was an adult that I couldn't understand technology and then I realized like okay, that probably comes from like early childhood, because it was always the father was opening the jar. It was always the father who was changing the lamp so like this, very like nobody said anything.
Heidi Haikala:Nobody said I couldn't do it right, but it's this kind of unconscious bias that we have. And then I had to realize like as an adult like oh, technology it's similar. You know, it's like biology, it's anything you can learn right. But it's like difficult to overcome that, especially as an adult, when you realize, oh, I could actually understand this.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So you can actually open the jar by yourself.
Steven Wilson:Yes, regarding bias, I was wondering also in like the hard world of science now, do you have any examples where you've encountered biases, and how does one handle this?
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So I've encountered plenty of biases in my career and I can just tell you a little anecdote, which is something that I have mentioned before, and it was that I was walking into a meeting and the person that I was walking with is my assistant and he's a male right, and I was carrying my computer. So we walk into this meeting and there's a room of men in suits and one of them turns around and he goes like could you fetch me a coffee? So I'm like okay, so I'm like okay. So, and of course you know, without trying to create, you know it's like you don't really wanna have start with the wrong foot right. So I was new to this. So I said, oh, I grabbed him a coffee and I handed it over to him, and then the meeting starts and I was the chair. So I stood in front of the table and I looked at him and I asked well, so how was that? So there's no good answer to that.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Right, I think you can approach biasness with irony or sarcasm. Killing seems to be illegal. So yeah, you can't do that, but I think so. I think that what I do as a woman is that I have three children. The youngest one is a boy and I teach him that we are all the same and we all have the same possibilities in life, and you should not judge a person by its cover being a woman or a man. So I don't have a good way of doing this if not influencing the next generation of people, because I think it's very difficult to explain now or to have somebody change how they are at this moment in life.
Steven Wilson:And, yeah, Do you think that the guy who got the coffee did he seem like he got embarrassed?
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Yeah, well, I think so, but then of course you know you ignore him throughout. Sure, right, you know, and that's that. But you know, have you, stephen, encountered biases in sciences and have you handled them?
Steven Wilson:Yeah, so I've definitely encountered that. I've seen colleagues, female colleagues who have been put in weird situations Like one example is I was at a conference with a colleague of mine who's a group leader and excellent scientist, and I was standing with her and we were meeting some new scientists and and then they just said, oh and oh, I guess you must be Stevens PhD student.
Steven Wilson:Then right, and it's like no, I'm the group leader you know, and you know, that's like one of those things right, that they just, they just somehow assume that some people can do that. And I've also seen how one's CV can also affect the balance and things. So a colleague I could notice that after she got a very prestigious grant, and I found it noticeable that it was then more obvious for me how much she was being ignored or spoken over before. But when she gets that grant then it's like, oh, now she's got the microphone right and I feel that I mean, yeah, I know that that happens, you know can happen with everybody. But I just got the feeling that, you know, this was very like obviously this is like an on and off switch for her, you know. So that grant was then, then she had the microphone somehow.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:So it's kind to me. It seems like that these are kind of assumptions, that leadership is some sort of gender biased in a way, and maybe what can we do to change this? Maybe, vahdi, can you solve our problem.
Mhairi Morris:I wish.
Mhairi Morris:I think it's about allowing people to make mistakes, but also having the free conversations allowing them to talk about this.
Mhairi Morris:So I also have a daughter. She's 14 years old and she is an incredible advocate for her own needs and for other needs. So she's very much if there's somebody struggling in class, she'll be the one who goes to the teacher and asks for their help for them, and I think we've just brought her up to use her voice, and I think that's something I didn't do until later on, probably to use her voice, and I think that's something I didn't do until later on, probably into my 40s actually, until I started to feel like I could stand up and speak up for myself, because I would be the person who would be talked over in a meeting, um, and now I don't allow that to happen. So I think education telling about allowing people to make the mistakes and then showing them how to to write that um, yeah, and having, as you were talking about earlier, hazel, having examples of women in leadership positions so that our younger generation of scientists can come through and see themselves in those positions. See it, you can be it, you know.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Yeah, indeed.
Steven Wilson:So we're going to move to the final topic. This will be about work-life balance and some personal reflections. So maybe Carla maybe we can start with you. What keeps you motivated and passionate about your work? I mean, science is a lot of work, but one has to live a life outside, sometimes of science too. So how are your reflections on that?
Carlotta Frascolla:Well. For me, the bigger motivation is knowing that research could help patients, and cancer is still a complex disease and there is a lot to understand. But every time I see progression, whatever it is a new discovery in the lab or new techniques that brings us to the clinical approaches or simply a successful experiment. I remember well what I do and also science is always evolving, so there's never a dull moment, so there's always something new to learn and I think that it makes me love what I do.
Steven Wilson:I was also wondering, for example, heidi, do you have any thoughts on work-life balance in a hectic life?
Heidi Haikala:I thought it was so hilarious that this question is asked for me, because this is like something that I'm still struggling with, and I'm sure many people are, especially nowadays when the world is getting so complex and overwhelming with messages. But I guess one very important thing for me is that, well, I have an eight month old daughter at home and my husband is currently taking care of her over there. So, like, like they are my rock in a way, like they they are what makes me, in a way, they're my superpower. So like having that good foundation and having that, like having having that, it's very important. But of course, then this might be such a cliche, but trying to find also something other than science, like a good hobby that really takes your mind away from from work.
Heidi Haikala:I know it's difficult, because science like it's a passion for all of us and it's something that kind of penetrates all life aspects in a way, but still having something else to do as well is very important and kind of trying to find that balance, I'm still working on it myself. One very interesting thing that actually my husband said to me one day like why do you read your emails all the time? Can I just not do that? And he was like yeah, I just read them.
Hazel Screen:At the end of the day I was like wow, wow okay, you can do that and that's kind of like maybe a bigger narrative where you can maybe switch off your phone for a while, or you can just read your messages every once in a while.
Heidi Haikala:We don't have to be available all the time. It's kind of like a thing that's that you. It seems true, but it's so. Take it easy and try to find that balance. Be kind to yourself, be kind to others as well. I think that's the key to everything.
Mhairi Morris:Give yourself permission to say no to things.
Steven Wilson:Yeah, you don't have to say yes to every opportunity. That's great.
Heidi Haikala:Have you solved that puzzle?
Steven Wilson:Well, let's see here my work-life balance is. I think that I have a sign in my I mean, I say yes to a lot of stuff, but I do. Both me and Hanna, my nearest colleague. We both have signs in our office that says no, to just remind us to maybe not say yes to that extra committee or this and that, and that you know, because I mean you take that stuff home with you. Even if your computer is, even if you leave your computer at home, you will take that stuff home with you and that can affect, you know, your life, the family and stuff like that.
Steven Wilson:But I think that I really value time with my family, doing homework, with my son and doing these things, and it does help sharpen the brain too. But, on the other hand, science is also it's not just work for me, it's also a passion, you know, and I love science and so so. So when I'm reading emails or writing a, you know, manuscript or whatever, it's not just work, it's, it's, it's also something I love, and I one doesn't have to be, you know, too worried about some that sometimes there are periods, but but then you got it, then you got to turn it off once in a while you know, so it's a very hard thing to do.
Heidi Haikala:I think yeah, sure very hard maybe also being present while you're at home, like, yeah, and just spend time with your child and be there, just like, throw that phone away, yeah, just focus on that moment.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:I think there's different degrees. Your child is eight months, mine, mine are 23, 21, and 14. They live with their other child.
Heidi Haikala:Yeah, that's different. If they're with their phones it's more difficult to eradicate those. Yeah, for sure.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:But I find myself texting them from the ground floor Are you guys, dinner's ready? But yeah, dinner's ready, but yeah. But I do understand and I do agree with the taking time for yourself and doing something. So I have the one hour rule a day in which I exercise. So that's my way of unplugging, that's what I do for myself, that's fun.
Carlotta Frascolla:I'm just going to wrap up.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:Wow, this was quite exciting. Thank you very much. I mean, it has been such a fantastic conversation. We've highlighted, I think, very interesting topics and some personal experiences as well regarding gender bias in science, from both male and female points of views, and we hope that this discussion has kind of shed some light on the challenges but also on the opportunities for women, or people, I would say, in the field. So, thank you, thank you very much for joining us and we look forward to continuing this important conversation and dialogue in the future, with maybe some other episodes on it.
Marianna Kruithof-de Julio:I wanted to thank the guests and, of course, the audience, and of course you, steve, being such a gracious co-host, and of course, miles. Where would we be without Miles? A lot better off, probably, and of course the work community. So thank you again, everybody for today. Applause.
