Episode 2: 'Organoids and a large portion of Chips!' with special guest Prof Thomas Hartung!

We tackle ethics, organoid intelligence and will we ever stop using animals?
Watch the video here too.

00:01:03,59: Introducing our special guest Professor Thomas Hartung from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

00:01:39,03: Marianna and Stephen talk about their extensive travels this month. Includes wonderful meeting at Yale Medical School where there's a lot of people and lots of technologies of organoids and spatial transcriptomics that are really advancing in urological research and teaching young scientists at the Xerox summer school for organ on chip systems in Tubingen.

00:05:20,59: Thomas Hartung, tells us about his background, interests and more and exciting new opportunities.
 
 00:09:14,71: Now we talk about ethics in using organoids and organ on a chips, a very big area and a hot topic inc: Intellectual property, regulation, consent, approvals, living donors, data ownership and need for clarity, organoid intelligence and more.
 
 00:21:17,66: We take a look at some of the reasons and meaning behind evidence based shifts to animal alternatives in research and its challenges. We then look at and discuss examples of why another can't
 represent a human? Will we ever stop using research animals? And how can a simple organoid really replace a big animal? Memory, learning and cognition with organoid intelligence?
 
 00:40:13,31: We pose the question; What do you see as the biggest obstacle science faces in adopting non animal techniques and what can be done to overcome them? Us and the next generation learning to and design our experiments in a different way using MPS tools rather than animal models. Show in a human complex in vitro system.
 
00:44:26,67: Demonstrating with objective data what we can get and what we can't get from animals. 

00:45:20,06: I'm really loving this! The shift towards alternatives to
animals is also a part of a larger part of society and where we are in the world. We discuss the economic costs, the maths of the research and impact seen. 

00:48:30,26: Quick recap on the ‘3Rs’ Reduction, Refinement, Replacement in practice.

00:50:18,78: The ethics of AI and potential consciousness of neural organised chips and organoid intelligence. What exactly is organoid intelligence? Are these terms which have meaning in everyday life, intelligence or self-awareness, consciousness relevant? When does intelligence start? 

00:57:08,51: Harrison Ford in the ‘Blade Runner’ and ‘Humanoids’.

01:04:35,87: Can we use brain organoids today for testing drugs or
other stimuli? Let's talk about the ethics of it.

01:14:14,38: Wrap up, The Beatles, conferences coming up, beer, guitar and pizza.
 

Visit the HOME of the Podcast here: WORC.Community

Transcript

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 Hi everybody, my name is
 
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 Rizwan Chaudry and I'm your
 
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 host for episode 2 of a brand
 
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 new podcast called Organoids
 
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 and a large portion of chips
 
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 brought to you by the work
 
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 dot community. And we'll be
 
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 talking all things organised
 
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 and organised. And if you've
 
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 missed episode one, check out
 
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 your favourite podcast
 
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 provider and and look out for
 
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 episode 1. So first of all, I
 
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 want to welcome my regular
 
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 guests here in experts
 
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 Professor Mariana Krotov di
 
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 Yulio, who is the head.
 
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 Yeah, well, yeah, you should
 
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 say hello, Mario. Yeah,
 
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 lovely to see you. Who is the
 
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 head of urology research
 
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 laboratory department,Urology department,
 
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 biomedical research director
 
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 of translational organised
 
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 resource, Associate Member NCC
 
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 RRNA Disease at theUniversity of Bern. So,
 
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 Mariana, hi. How are you?
 
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 I am fantastic. What are you
 
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 doing very, very well? And
 
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 also our other regular
 
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 guests, Professor Stephen Ray
 
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 Wilson from Department of
 
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 Chemistry, University of
 
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 Isla, Oslo, I should say.
 
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 And our special guest today,
 
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 Professor Thomas Hartu for
 
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 the John Hopkins Bloomberg
 
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 School of Public Health. And
 
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 Thomas has helped steer the
 
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 revolution toxicology to move
 
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 away from the 50 plus year
 
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 old animal test to organise
 
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 cultures and the use of
 
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 artificial intelligence. And
 
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 someone told me that Thomas
 
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 says you can tell. But it's
 
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 lovely to meet you and thank
 
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 you for getting up so early
 
 49
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 to join us this morning. Is
 
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  6:00 AM where you are in the
 
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 morning, where you are
 
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 calling in from says. Thank
 
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 you for joining us this
 
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 morning. Good morning, hello
 
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 everyone, thanks for
 
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 having me. It was lovely to
 
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 for you to join us. Now today
 
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 we're going to be talking
 
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 about ethics. But before we
 
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 do that, Mariana and Stephen
 
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 who joined us last month, you
 
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 were on your travels or
 
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 talking about all the
 
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 different things that you're
 
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 going to be visiting. So how
 
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 was the last month you marry
 
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 him? Everyone kick up with
 
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 you. So I know you went to
 
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 the various events. Anything
 
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 exciting happen? Any high
 
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 point, low points in terms of
 
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 organoids news and
 
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 information that you'd like
 
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 to. Well, so, well, thanks
 
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 for asking because I think
 
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 I've been, I'm on a meeting
 
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 towards in the last in the
 
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 last month. I would say I've
 
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 been, I've been at this
 
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 wonderful meeting URS at Yale
 
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 Medical School where there's
 
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 a lot of people, the
 
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 technologies of organoids and
 
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 spatial transcriptomics are
 
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 really. Advancing in the
 
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 in the urological research.
 
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 Then I was at the AACR
 
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 pancreatic meeting where
 
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 there's also there are a lot
 
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 of. On chip
 
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 technology going which is
 
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 also quite, quite exciting
 
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 there as well. And then I've
 
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 been at the meeting in
 
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 Switzerland, the bladder
 
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 cancer meeting, which I must
 
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 say it's really was really
 
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 state-of-the-art. And there
 
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 we presented our clinical
 
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 trial in which we predict
 
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 treatment of patients and non
 
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 muscle invasive bladder
 
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 cancer. And the results I
 
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 must say are. More than
 
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 what I I actually hoped for.
 
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 So it's, I'm really looking
 
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 forward to the recruitment of
 
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 the last patients and the
 
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 follow-ups. And finally I was
 
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 in this wonderful meeting in
 
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 Rome, which is was a organoid
 
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 workshop where I must say it
 
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 was very challenging.
 
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 Although I am Italian, all of
 
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 a sudden I was faced with
 
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 scientific Italian, which
 
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 was, you know, kind of
 
 118
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 another language for me.
 
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 So I ended up speaking
 
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 English with my Italian
 
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 colleagues, which was just
 
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 bizarre I would say, and the
 
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 one of the organisers.
 
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 Giovanni Blandino, which is a
 
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 fantastic MD and scientist
 
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 that is in in Rome, he's
 
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 working on also on organoids
 
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 and they have really taken a
 
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 very big step forward also
 
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 there in, in muscle invasive
 
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 and non muscle invasive
 
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 bladder cancer. And the most
 
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 important part is the fact
 
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 that everybody was so
 
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 collaborative and really
 
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 we're going to start working
 
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 together. And so I hope to
 
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 bring them also at our
 
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 meeting in in Cambridge. So
 
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 that would be fantastic to
 
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 see the different. Of it as
 
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 well. So I had a great time
 
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 just a little jet lagged but.
 
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 And Steven, how about you
 
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 then? Because I know again,
 
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 you were going to be going to
 
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 a few talks. And yeah, so
 
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 I've been, I've been, I've
 
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 been also been around. But I
 
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 would say that my highlight
 
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 was was teaching young
 
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 scientists at the Xerox
 
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 summer school for organised
 
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 chip systems. In Tubingen,
 
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 which is hosted by the, by
 
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 the, by the centre of the
 
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 three R centre down there.
 
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 And it was just amazingly, it
 
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 was, it was literally
 
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 touching to see so many
 
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 young, typically PhD
 
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 students and all of the
 
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 questions and attitudes they
 
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 have where they, they really
 
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 want to make a difference and
 
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 they're asking big,important, challenging
 
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 questions. And it just
 
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 just gives me so much
 
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 pleasure and hope to see that
 
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 there's so many. Awesome
 
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 young scientists out there.
 
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 So that was definitely my my
 
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 the highlight of my month
 
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 travel wise right now.
 
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 Thomas, I'm going to ask you
 
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 the same question. But before
 
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 we do that, I would like you
 
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 to give listeners and viewers
 
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 a bit of your background and
 
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 also how you becameinterested in
 
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 organising organ on Chip as
 
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 well. So we might just give
 
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 him listen to a bit of a
 
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 background on yourself and
 
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 what you're currently working
 
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 on. Sure. Actually, you guys
 
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 were just mentioning a few of
 
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 the stations of my life. I
 
 189
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 was studying medicine andbiochemistry.
 
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 Exactly. And I lived seven
 
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 years in Italy working for
 
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 the European Commission,
 
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 which was my interruption in
 
 194
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 in in this work. And actually
 
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 was there in 2002  thatwe
 
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 started working with
 
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 organoids. We took
 
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 over a method from Honegger
 
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 in Switzerland to produce red
 
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 brain organoids, which she
 
 201
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 published 1979 in Nature. So
 
 202
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 really one of the very early
 
 203
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 works on this and which we
 
 204
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 later humanised. I'm
 
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 back again a full blown
 
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 academic. I have now 5
 
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 affiliations in three
 
 208
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 universities so a lot to tell
 
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 but that is a problem.
 
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 But as you rightly said my
 
 211
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 work has been focusing more
 
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 and more on toxicology.
 
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 Because that's a very strange
 
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 area. I just turned 61 and
 
 215
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 most of the methods intoxicology have been
 
 216
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 introduced when I was not yet
 
 217
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 born in kindergarten. It
 
 218
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 is really time for renewal
 
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 and this is my goal. Yeah. So
 
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 what you, what you
 
 221
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 characterise as a revolution
 
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 in toxicology and I'm
 
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 trying to do so by
 
 224
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 technologies organised and
 
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 AI. These are the two pillars
 
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 of our work and.
 
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 Fantastic. And but what I
 
 228
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 also understand that you've
 
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 got a very well known other
 
 230
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 half as well because it's on
 
 231
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 my notes that Miles sent me
 
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 to say to make sure I mention
 
 233
 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:09,520
 your other half and how well.
 
 234
 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,960
 No, so, so who is your other
 
 235
 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:12,600
 and how is your well known?
 
 236
 00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:14,670
 Yeah, My wife Lynas Manova,
 
 237
 00:07:15,430 --> 00:07:17,150
 she is my partner in crime.
 
 238
 00:07:17,830 --> 00:07:19,710
 She is doing now most of the
 
 239
 00:07:19,710 --> 00:07:21,390
 brain organic work in our
 
 240
 00:07:21,390 --> 00:07:23,830
 team. She has a group of about
 
 241
 00:07:23,830 --> 00:07:25,630
  20 people working around
 
 242
 00:07:25,630 --> 00:07:27,230
 brain organoids and many
 
 243
 00:07:27,350 --> 00:07:28,830
 clinical applications,
 
 244
 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:31,390
 autism, some viral
 
 245
 00:07:31,390 --> 00:07:33,950
 infections, really crazy
 
 246
 00:07:33,950 --> 00:07:36,830
 stuff. And I've been focusing
 
 247
 00:07:36,830 --> 00:07:38,110
 over the last 10 years more
 
 248
 00:07:38,110 --> 00:07:40,920
 on AI side of things. As the
 
 249
 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,000
 future whether the frontiers
 
 250
 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,160
 in AI and trying to predict.
 
 251
 00:07:44,910 --> 00:07:46,670
 Properties of substance from
 
 252
 00:07:47,390 --> 00:07:49,430
 from structure and the
 
 253
 00:07:49,430 --> 00:07:52,150
 biological profiles. And most
 
 254
 00:07:52,150 --> 00:07:52,990
 recently we brought this
 
 255
 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:54,310
 together. We, we've worked
 
 256
 00:07:54,310 --> 00:07:55,790
 now on what we call organised
 
 257
 00:07:55,790 --> 00:07:58,230
 intelligence oi. So we
 
 258
 00:07:58,230 --> 00:08:00,110
 combine with microelectrode
 
 259
 00:08:00,110 --> 00:08:01,470
 areas, brain organoids and
 
 260
 00:08:01,470 --> 00:08:03,190
 try to show their learning
 
 261
 00:08:03,190 --> 00:08:05,870
 and memory as a fascinating
 
 262
 00:08:05,870 --> 00:08:08,310
 new opportunity. Fantastic.
 
 263
 00:08:08,310 --> 00:08:09,470
 Well, we've been touched upon
 
 264
 00:08:09,470 --> 00:08:10,910
 that then as we carry on our
 
 265
 00:08:10,910 --> 00:08:13,520
 conversation today now. One
 
 266
 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:14,600
 thing I want to ask you, did
 
 267
 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,150
 you guys actually meet?This
 
 268
 00:08:17,150 --> 00:08:18,870
 year at Word Plus 24, have
 
 269
 00:08:18,870 --> 00:08:21,150
 you actually met and worked
 
 270
 00:08:21,150 --> 00:08:23,560
 together in the past?No, not
 
 271
 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,120
 yet at least we met.
 
 272
 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,080
 I have to say for me it was a
 
 273
 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,800
 bit of seagull manoeuvre,
 
 274
 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,800
 flying **** on everyone andfly out.
 
 275
 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:36,640
 I must remember that phrase.
 
 276
 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:37,720
 Actually, that's a very good
 
 277
 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,600
 one to remember. Good
 
 278
 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,440
 for my talk and I had so many
 
 279
 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:43,640
 appointments. I cannot
 
 280
 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,280
 imagine since we started,
 
 281
 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:46,360
 oi, disorganised intelligence
 
 282
 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,080
 . thingsI gave 88
 
 283
 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,080
 presentations last year. 17
 
 284
 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,160
 were keynote lectures at
 
 285
 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,750
 conferences. It was really
 
 286
 00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:55,870
 crazy. All right, well, the
 
 287
 00:08:55,870 --> 00:08:57,030
 important thing is that you
 
 288
 00:08:57,030 --> 00:08:58,070
 getting the word out. That's
 
 289
 00:08:58,070 --> 00:08:58,830
 the important thing. So
 
 290
 00:08:58,830 --> 00:08:59,990
 people start to learn more
 
 291
 00:08:59,990 --> 00:09:02,190
 about it and hopefully take
 
 292
 00:09:02,190 --> 00:09:04,030
 it in. I got my PhD
 
 293
 00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:05,750
 supervisor obviously do good
 
 294
 00:09:05,750 --> 00:09:07,390
 things and talk about them.
 
 295
 00:09:08,310 --> 00:09:09,790
 Yeah, well, what's the point?
 
 296
 00:09:09,790 --> 00:09:10,830
 Otherwise no one knows you
 
 297
 00:09:10,830 --> 00:09:12,070
 did it. That's the thing.
 
 298
 00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:14,710
 Anyway. Today we are going to
 
 299
 00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:16,430
 talk about ethics in using
 
 300
 00:09:16,430 --> 00:09:18,710
 organoid ship on organ on a
 
 301
 00:09:18,710 --> 00:09:21,440
 chip, I should say. And it's
 
 302
 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,470
 a very, very big area. To
 
 303
 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:25,190
 talk about is a hot topic. So
 
 304
 00:09:25,190 --> 00:09:26,510
 Marianna, maybe we'll start
 
 305
 00:09:26,510 --> 00:09:29,350
 with you. Why is it such an
 
 306
 00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:30,950
 important area to talk about
 
 307
 00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:32,630
 in terms of ethics using
 
 308
 00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:33,830
 organoids, organology?
 
 309
 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:36,760
 So I honestly think we're
 
 310
 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,720
 still a bit in the wild, Wild
 
 311
 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,000
 West of what is,
 
 312
 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,160
 what we can, what we can't,
 
 313
 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,960
 what we should, what we
 
 314
 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,720
 might do. And I think there's
 
 315
 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,720
 what I've came to the
 
 316
 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,320
 conclusion of working with
 
 317
 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:55,880
 these organisations that
 
 318
 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,040
 there'sa lot of confusion as
 
 319
 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,150
 into. You know, when a
 
 320
 00:10:00,150 --> 00:10:02,510
 patient gives his or her
 
 321
 00:10:02,510 --> 00:10:04,310
 tissue and we use it and we
 
 322
 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:06,550
 generate organoids, who has
 
 323
 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:08,470
 the right then to use these
 
 324
 00:10:08,470 --> 00:10:09,790
 these organoids, Are they
 
 325
 00:10:09,790 --> 00:10:11,630
 mine? Are they the patients?
 
 326
 00:10:11,630 --> 00:10:13,990
 Are they the hospitals? Can
 
 327
 00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:16,880
 we use the?Can we
 
 328
 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,920
 link it to the DNA? Are weallowed to use
 
 329
 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,480
 transcriptomics on it? Can we
 
 330
 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,320
 or can we generate an organ
 
 331
 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,280
 on chip and then for example
 
 332
 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,280
  licence it for a company to
 
 333
 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,870
 use?I mean, where is what is
 
 334
 00:10:29,870 --> 00:10:31,830
 the right thing to do and how
 
 335
 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:34,030
 is it regulated? And although
 
 336
 00:10:34,030 --> 00:10:35,510
 these questions might seem
 
 337
 00:10:35,630 --> 00:10:38,430
 almost like obvious questions
 
 338
 00:10:38,430 --> 00:10:39,950
 to ask, there's no real
 
 339
 00:10:39,950 --> 00:10:42,510
 regulation on it. So, and
 
 340
 00:10:42,510 --> 00:10:45,270
 it's almost on a, on a,
 
 341
 00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:47,830
 on a, on a, on a trial and
 
 342
 00:10:47,830 --> 00:10:49,750
 error base because with all
 
 343
 00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:51,710
 the, whenever we apply for
 
 344
 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:53,350
 ethical approvals or stuff
 
 345
 00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:55,360
 like that. What happens is
 
 346
 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,560
 that we we are faced with a
 
 347
 00:10:57,560 --> 00:10:59,080
 list of these questions.
 
 348
 00:10:59,830 --> 00:11:01,230
 Honestly, I always have a
 
 349
 00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:02,950
 really hard time in trying to
 
 350
 00:11:02,950 --> 00:11:04,110
 answer them and also in
 
 351
 00:11:04,110 --> 00:11:07,110
 trying to decide, well is
 
 352
 00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:08,350
 the hospital sharing the
 
 353
 00:11:08,350 --> 00:11:10,030
 clinical data? Is the
 
 354
 00:11:10,510 --> 00:11:12,190
 Research Institute doing it
 
 355
 00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:14,630
 so and with even within our
 
 356
 00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:15,750
 own Research Institute and
 
 357
 00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:18,190
 our hospital we have in
 
 358
 00:11:18,190 --> 00:11:20,550
 Italian, we say few ideas and
 
 359
 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:22,430
 well confused on how.
 
 360
 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,200
 So on what the regulations
 
 361
 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,040
 are and I think it's
 
 362
 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,750
 something that. Now
 
 363
 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:32,070
 people start talking about
 
 364
 00:11:32,070 --> 00:11:33,270
 and start asking these
 
 365
 00:11:33,270 --> 00:11:34,350
 questions. So I think it's a
 
 366
 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:36,070
 very important thing to see
 
 367
 00:11:36,070 --> 00:11:37,910
 and to hear what other people
 
 368
 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:38,910
 think, but also what other
 
 369
 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:40,430
 scientists thinks. Because
 
 370
 00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:42,550
 there's also a discrepancy in
 
 371
 00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:44,670
 what an oncologist or a
 
 372
 00:11:44,670 --> 00:11:46,870
 medical doctor might view
 
 373
 00:11:46,950 --> 00:11:48,550
 the, the, the, the, the
 
 374
 00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:50,270
 output or the, the data used
 
 375
 00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:52,350
 versus what a scientist might
 
 376
 00:11:52,350 --> 00:11:53,990
 look at it. And I think we
 
 377
 00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:55,950
 should align on, on these
 
 378
 00:11:55,950 --> 00:11:57,790
 things. So no, it's fine.
 
 379
 00:11:57,790 --> 00:11:59,870
 Well, before we. Stephen and
 
 380
 00:11:59,870 --> 00:12:00,870
 Thomas review. One question
 
 381
 00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:02,470
 I've got for you is where
 
 382
 00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:03,430
 does the patient come into
 
 383
 00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:05,870
 because when they when you
 
 384
 00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:06,750
 take something from a
 
 385
 00:12:06,750 --> 00:12:08,030
 patient, do they sign off
 
 386
 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:10,510
 permission in terms of you
 
 387
 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:11,990
 can use this for research
 
 388
 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:13,550
 then and how far does that
 
 389
 00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:15,230
 go? I mean in terms of theirpermission?
 
 390
 00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:19,910
 Mariana, metres to you. Yeah.
 
 391
 00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:22,310
 So yes. So they we
 
 392
 00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:24,750
 have informed consents that
 
 393
 00:12:24,750 --> 00:12:26,790
 the patients have to sign and
 
 394
 00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:28,750
 these informed consents are
 
 395
 00:12:29,550 --> 00:12:30,950
 reviewed by the ethical
 
 396
 00:12:30,950 --> 00:12:33,910
 committee. So we
 
 397
 00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:35,270
 have permission of the
 
 398
 00:12:35,270 --> 00:12:37,670
 patient to use the material
 
 399
 00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:41,310
 for research. But if we
 
 400
 00:12:41,310 --> 00:12:43,590
 want to use the material for
 
 401
 00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:45,350
 commercial use, that's
 
 402
 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:46,430
 another ball game for
 
 403
 00:12:46,430 --> 00:12:48,070
 example. And that is not
 
 404
 00:12:48,070 --> 00:12:50,270
 included in that informed
 
 405
 00:12:50,270 --> 00:12:52,590
 consent that that requires an
 
 406
 00:12:52,590 --> 00:12:55,230
 additional amendment.
 
 407
 00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:57,350
 And the regulation there are
 
 408
 00:12:58,470 --> 00:13:00,790
 very, very strict. I give you
 
 409
 00:13:00,790 --> 00:13:03,190
 an example. If we have a
 
 410
 00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:04,670
 grant, a consortium grant
 
 411
 00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:06,630
 like for example, so in which
 
 412
 00:13:06,950 --> 00:13:08,990
 we are the providers of the,
 
 413
 00:13:08,990 --> 00:13:10,390
 so we generate the organoids,
 
 414
 00:13:10,390 --> 00:13:11,990
 but we also provide the
 
 415
 00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:14,840
 organoids to for example. A
 
 416
 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,200
 company that then does
 
 417
 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,600
 something else with them.
 
 418
 00:13:18,030 --> 00:13:20,230
 This regulation this this
 
 419
 00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:22,590
 providing here has to be
 
 420
 00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:25,350
 anonymized, meaning that we
 
 421
 00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:26,110
 cannot release the
 
 422
 00:13:26,110 --> 00:13:27,390
 information of the patients.
 
 423
 00:13:27,390 --> 00:13:28,350
 We can release the
 
 424
 00:13:28,350 --> 00:13:29,550
 information, the clinical
 
 425
 00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:31,390
 information, but not the
 
 426
 00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:33,550
 can't be traced back to the
 
 427
 00:13:33,550 --> 00:13:35,470
 patient and has to be done in
 
 428
 00:13:35,470 --> 00:13:38,350
 a very regulated manner,
 
 429
 00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:40,070
 meaning that the company can
 
 430
 00:13:40,070 --> 00:13:41,830
 only use it for these things
 
 431
 00:13:41,830 --> 00:13:43,710
 that are written on, on what
 
 432
 00:13:43,710 --> 00:13:45,750
 we have agreed on, which of
 
 433
 00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:47,830
 course makes makes sense,
 
 434
 00:13:47,830 --> 00:13:49,950
 but. As you can imagine, it
 
 435
 00:13:50,110 --> 00:13:52,190
 slows a lot down
 
 436
 00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:54,310
 processing because you know,
 
 437
 00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:56,110
 to get these paper signs,
 
 438
 00:13:57,550 --> 00:13:59,070
 you know, take us anywhere
 
 439
 00:13:59,070 --> 00:14:01,110
 between, you know, six months
 
 440
 00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:03,830
 to two years. So it's
 
 441
 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:06,670
 and the reason is it's not
 
 442
 00:14:06,670 --> 00:14:08,790
 regulated. So there is no,
 
 443
 00:14:08,950 --> 00:14:11,070
 there's no like this is what
 
 444
 00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:13,070
 we have to do and there's no
 
 445
 00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:14,670
 body and there's nobody who
 
 446
 00:14:14,670 --> 00:14:16,870
 actually is responsible in
 
 447
 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:19,670
 terms of the. Century space
 
 448
 00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:21,790
 in terms of research that can
 
 449
 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:23,630
 sort of, I, I think there's
 
 450
 00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:25,390
 the different institutions
 
 451
 00:14:25,390 --> 00:14:26,710
 have different bodies. So
 
 452
 00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:28,030
 there's, there's the ethical
 
 453
 00:14:28,030 --> 00:14:29,190
 body of the hospital, there's
 
 454
 00:14:29,190 --> 00:14:30,710
 the one, there's the
 
 455
 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:32,910
 Unitextra of the university.
 
 456
 00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:35,710
 But I think that we could
 
 457
 00:14:35,710 --> 00:14:37,470
 make an effort to streamline
 
 458
 00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:39,190
 this in a better way and to
 
 459
 00:14:39,310 --> 00:14:41,790
 make the rules much more
 
 460
 00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:44,030
 clear. Even if, for example,
 
 461
 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:45,830
 I want to share material with
 
 462
 00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:47,790
 with you guys, we would have
 
 463
 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:50,110
 to go. Through this process
 
 464
 00:14:50,470 --> 00:14:51,870
 of of MTA CD
 
 465
 00:14:52,270 --> 00:14:54,750
 as and of course
 
 466
 00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:56,510
 which which I'm not saying
 
 467
 00:14:56,510 --> 00:14:58,870
 it's not correct, it is
 
 468
 00:14:58,870 --> 00:15:00,950
 absolutely correct to to do.
 
 469
 00:15:01,070 --> 00:15:02,350
 It's just that the process
 
 470
 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:04,030
 has a lot of hiccups because
 
 471
 00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:06,390
 with every institution there
 
 472
 00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:08,870
 is a different set of rules
 
 473
 00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:10,710
 that we have to have. And of
 
 474
 00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:12,270
 course we are in Switzerland.
 
 475
 00:15:12,270 --> 00:15:13,950
 So we are not part of the EU.
 
 476
 00:15:13,950 --> 00:15:16,680
 So you know, we, we are. Our
 
 477
 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,480
 rules are different than the
 
 478
 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,030
 EU rules. That are different
 
 479
 00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:22,470
 from the US rules as well. So
 
 480
 00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:25,230
 it's I don't see this ordeal
 
 481
 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:26,830
 as to be something easy, you
 
 482
 00:15:26,830 --> 00:15:29,310
 know, but but it is something
 
 483
 00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:30,790
 to talk about. Absolutely.
 
 484
 00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:32,590
 Yeah. Thomas, Stephen, what's
 
 485
 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:33,670
 your views on this and what
 
 486
 00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:35,630
 are your thoughts on this? I
 
 487
 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:36,990
 mean, I would say that a
 
 488
 00:15:37,150 --> 00:15:39,070
 scientist we typically
 
 489
 00:15:40,110 --> 00:15:41,670
 overlook a lot of the ethical
 
 490
 00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:43,870
 aspects of our work. We
 
 491
 00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:45,470
 have a PHDA doctorate in
 
 492
 00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:47,670
 philosophy, which we not
 
 493
 00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:49,390
 philosophers enough. To
 
 494
 00:15:49,390 --> 00:15:50,470
 really look into what this
 
 495
 00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:53,110
 means, I mean, my work is a
 
 496
 00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:54,430
 lot about replacing animal
 
 497
 00:15:54,430 --> 00:15:55,670
 testing. So it has a very
 
 498
 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:58,310
 strong ethical aspect,
 
 499
 00:15:58,670 --> 00:15:59,710
 but it's not that simple.
 
 500
 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:01,390
 It's not only about avoiding
 
 501
 00:16:01,390 --> 00:16:02,710
 suffering of animals. It is
 
 502
 00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:04,350
 about safety. It's about
 
 503
 00:16:04,350 --> 00:16:06,670
 value decisions, what is
 
 504
 00:16:06,670 --> 00:16:09,070
 economic growth and market
 
 505
 00:16:09,070 --> 00:16:12,030
 access compared to, you know,
 
 506
 00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:14,760
 precautionary work. And if
 
 507
 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,120
 you come to the tools we are
 
 508
 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:17,560
 working with, I'm from
 
 509
 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,990
 Hopkins. Here the healer
 
 510
 00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:21,150
 cells were produced, the
 
 511
 00:16:21,150 --> 00:16:22,910
 first human cell line and
 
 512
 00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:24,630
 they were burned. I mean,
 
 513
 00:16:24,670 --> 00:16:26,510
 these cells have been used in
 
 514
 00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:28,270
 I think more than 200 patents
 
 515
 00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:30,750
 to develop the polio vaccine.
 
 516
 00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:32,630
 But at some point, the
 
 517
 00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:35,790
 family of Henrietta Lux came
 
 518
 00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:37,030
 and said, sorry, we had no
 
 519
 00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:39,190
 share of this. He did never
 
 520
 00:16:39,190 --> 00:16:40,750
 gave consent using these
 
 521
 00:16:40,750 --> 00:16:42,230
 cells that we have now and
 
 522
 00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:43,270
 your lectures and we are
 
 523
 00:16:43,270 --> 00:16:45,350
 honouring her legacy and.
 
 524
 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,880
 This has created a lot of
 
 525
 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,190
 discussion. And now we go
 
 526
 00:16:50,190 --> 00:16:52,550
 steps further. Now
 
 527
 00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:55,830
 many cells are from
 
 528
 00:16:55,830 --> 00:16:58,150
 living donors, so we might
 
 529
 00:16:58,150 --> 00:17:01,030
 learn something about you as
 
 530
 00:17:01,030 --> 00:17:02,550
 a donor because we use some
 
 531
 00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:03,910
 of your cells. What is our
 
 532
 00:17:03,910 --> 00:17:06,070
 responsibility? Do we have to
 
 533
 00:17:06,070 --> 00:17:08,960
 tell you?And then science
 
 534
 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,080
 is advancing. I can do my
 
 535
 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,840
 crazy experiments on organic
 
 536
 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,1000
 intelligence with cell lines,
 
 537
 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,240
 cells which were frozen
 
 538
 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,630
 decades ago. Nobody has ever
 
 539
 00:17:19,630 --> 00:17:21,350
 thought there could be a
 
 540
 00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:22,510
 material just possibly
 
 541
 00:17:22,510 --> 00:17:24,830
 thinking and we might be self
 
 542
 00:17:24,830 --> 00:17:27,630
 aware. So so this is there's
 
 543
 00:17:27,630 --> 00:17:29,190
 there's a bucket of, of, of
 
 544
 00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:30,310
 discussions to have. Yeah.
 
 545
 00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:31,270
 Well, I was going to say it
 
 546
 00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:32,430
 was, I was thinking, what
 
 547
 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:33,750
 about Henrietta Lux actually,
 
 548
 00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:34,870
 when Marianna was talking
 
 549
 00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:36,110
 about that, because that came
 
 550
 00:17:36,110 --> 00:17:38,070
 into my head about ownership
 
 551
 00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:40,390
 and what happened there. But
 
 552
 00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:41,670
 also if you think about AI
 
 553
 00:17:41,670 --> 00:17:43,830
 and the speed of AI now
 
 554
 00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:45,630
 discovering things and
 
 555
 00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:47,070
 developing things. And Marion
 
 556
 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:48,070
 is talking about two years to
 
 557
 00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:49,550
 go through a process. Of
 
 558
 00:17:49,550 --> 00:17:51,870
 that, you know, at what point
 
 559
 00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:52,790
 do you say, well, actually we
 
 560
 00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:53,750
 need to stop this now because
 
 561
 00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:55,110
 we haven't got permission to
 
 562
 00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:57,430
 carry on doing this, You
 
 563
 00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:58,950
 know, you know, AI doesn't
 
 564
 00:17:58,950 --> 00:18:00,030
 have that time to me, it just
 
 565
 00:18:00,030 --> 00:18:00,910
 does it, doesn't it? So it
 
 566
 00:18:00,910 --> 00:18:01,910
 doesn't suddenly stop us to
 
 567
 00:18:01,910 --> 00:18:02,710
 go through the process.
 
 568
 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:03,590
 Actually, I need to check
 
 569
 00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:04,830
 this bit before I carry on
 
 570
 00:18:04,830 --> 00:18:05,990
 doing what I'm supposed to be
 
 571
 00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:07,870
 doing. So that that big
 
 572
 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:09,150
 brings up another ethical
 
 573
 00:18:09,150 --> 00:18:09,910
 question, doesn't it, in
 
 574
 00:18:09,910 --> 00:18:11,590
 terms of using AI, in terms
 
 575
 00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:12,950
 of a lot of the research that
 
 576
 00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:14,840
 you do?I mean, it's data
 
 577
 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,760
 privacy is a is a big thing,
 
 578
 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,080
 more in Europe than than
 
 579
 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,720
 elsewhere, but it is still.
 
 580
 00:18:21,470 --> 00:18:24,190
 It is at the same time also
 
 581
 00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:25,750
 hindering research here
 
 582
 00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:29,390
 the the tremendous promise
 
 583
 00:18:29,390 --> 00:18:31,430
 of AI to help with all type
 
 584
 00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:33,630
 of diseases is hidden by
 
 585
 00:18:33,630 --> 00:18:35,750
 access to patient data. Now
 
 586
 00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:37,150
 if you cannot mine the data,
 
 587
 00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:39,030
 you don't get it. So we need
 
 588
 00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:41,710
 to really find the sweet spot
 
 589
 00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:45,110
 against the abuse and while
 
 590
 00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:47,500
 enabling. That we take
 
 591
 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:48,260
 advantage of these
 
 592
 00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:49,260
 technologies. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 593
 00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:50,660
 Well, it seems to be, you
 
 594
 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:52,380
 know, as a layperson, I'm not
 
 595
 00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:54,140
 a scientist, obviously, but a
 
 596
 00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:55,460
 bit like if you follow sports
 
 597
 00:18:55,460 --> 00:18:57,660
 and is the image rights that
 
 598
 00:18:57,660 --> 00:18:58,660
 footballers have, for
 
 599
 00:18:58,660 --> 00:19:01,220
 example, and how far
 
 600
 00:19:01,660 --> 00:19:03,340
 do those images, do they have
 
 601
 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:05,140
 permission to get revenue
 
 602
 00:19:05,140 --> 00:19:06,460
 back or commercialise their
 
 603
 00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:07,740
 images? Because FIFA might
 
 604
 00:19:07,740 --> 00:19:08,620
 have it, the club might have
 
 605
 00:19:08,620 --> 00:19:09,540
 it, they might have someone
 
 606
 00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:10,580
 else might have it. And where
 
 607
 00:19:10,580 --> 00:19:11,500
 does it stop where they can
 
 608
 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:12,700
 stop making money out of it
 
 609
 00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:13,980
 as well. But you could always
 
 610
 00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:14,780
 say that from a patient's
 
 611
 00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:15,740
 perspective, that's you know
 
 612
 00:19:15,740 --> 00:19:17,420
 what?Does it's where they can
 
 613
 00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:19,180
 start to get some return from
 
 614
 00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:20,380
 whatever that they've been
 
 615
 00:19:20,380 --> 00:19:21,100
 used for in terms of
 
 616
 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:22,500
 research, commercialization
 
 617
 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:24,540
 as well. This is the point
 
 618
 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:25,780
 when you tell the people,
 
 619
 00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:26,820
 make clear what they're
 
 620
 00:19:26,820 --> 00:19:28,060
 gaining from it. What is in
 
 621
 00:19:28,060 --> 00:19:29,620
 for them. They are
 
 622
 00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:32,580
 tremendously willing to. But
 
 623
 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:34,740
 behind their back just doing
 
 624
 00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:36,380
 it is something which creates
 
 625
 00:19:36,380 --> 00:19:38,860
 suspicion and fear and
 
 626
 00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:41,820
 and opens up for for the bad
 
 627
 00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:43,140
 actors. Yeah, yeah,
 
 628
 00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:44,140
 definitely. Steve, what's
 
 629
 00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:46,710
 your view on this?Well, I'm
 
 630
 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:49,130
 thinking, you know. I think
 
 631
 00:19:49,130 --> 00:19:51,490
 these are really important
 
 632
 00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:53,890
 discussions. I mean, from,
 
 633
 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:56,090
 from the concept of the of
 
 634
 00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:58,650
 the HeLa cells. And like
 
 635
 00:19:58,650 --> 00:20:00,330
 Thomas says, we have a doctor
 
 636
 00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:01,930
 in philosophy, but where is,
 
 637
 00:20:01,930 --> 00:20:03,370
 you know, but there's not
 
 638
 00:20:03,370 --> 00:20:04,410
 necessarily that much
 
 639
 00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:07,010
 philosophy in that. And as a,
 
 640
 00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:08,850
 as a teacher at, at a
 
 641
 00:20:08,850 --> 00:20:11,130
 university and somebody who's
 
 642
 00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:13,050
 been on both sides of both
 
 643
 00:20:13,050 --> 00:20:14,570
 soft and hard science, I used
 
 644
 00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:16,090
 to study psychology before I
 
 645
 00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:18,780
 went into chemistry. It just
 
 646
 00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:20,820
 really motivates me to want
 
 647
 00:20:20,820 --> 00:20:23,500
 to really spread the message
 
 648
 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:25,140
 on how how important it is to
 
 649
 00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:27,620
 have this cross disciplinary
 
 650
 00:20:27,620 --> 00:20:29,820
 attitude also in the
 
 651
 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:31,580
 teaching and the the, the
 
 652
 00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:34,060
 schooling of our, of
 
 653
 00:20:34,060 --> 00:20:36,220
 ourselves as researchers, as
 
 654
 00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:38,180
 as also young researchers,
 
 655
 00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:39,740
 but also the general public.
 
 656
 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:41,820
 I mean science and these,
 
 657
 00:20:41,820 --> 00:20:43,380
 these questions are just
 
 658
 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:45,740
 examples of how you know
 
 659
 00:20:45,740 --> 00:20:47,660
 molecules and atoms they can.
 
 660
 00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:49,540
 Built up to be so complex
 
 661
 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:50,620
 things that they're living
 
 662
 00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:52,660
 things and they can be even
 
 663
 00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:54,780
 models of, of brains and, and
 
 664
 00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:55,860
 you get all these questions.
 
 665
 00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:57,820
 And I think it's just so
 
 666
 00:20:57,820 --> 00:20:59,980
 important that we, we
 
 667
 00:20:59,980 --> 00:21:01,700
 continue to strive even more
 
 668
 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:04,420
 to to involve humanities and
 
 669
 00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:06,940
 and also other fields of
 
 670
 00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:08,780
 social science, etcetera into
 
 671
 00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:09,860
 this so that we can get
 
 672
 00:21:09,860 --> 00:21:12,020
 really good discussions
 
 673
 00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:13,700
 going. This it's you know, I
 
 674
 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:15,980
 think that crossdisciplinaryism is more
 
 675
 00:21:15,980 --> 00:21:17,460
 important than ever now.
 
 676
 00:21:17,660 --> 00:21:18,780
 Well, let's take a look now
 
 677
 00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:21,220
 at some of the reasons behind
 
 678
 00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:22,140
 this in terms of evidence
 
 679
 00:21:22,140 --> 00:21:24,260
 based shift to animal
 
 680
 00:21:24,260 --> 00:21:25,500
 alternatives in research. You
 
 681
 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:27,180
 know and I know Thomas,
 
 682
 00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:28,100
 you've done quite a lot of
 
 683
 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:29,260
 work. And So what are some of
 
 684
 00:21:29,260 --> 00:21:31,860
 the examples of why
 
 685
 00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:33,380
 another can't represent a
 
 686
 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:36,300
 human?Yeah. I mean,
 
 687
 00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:37,340
 perhaps you should quickly
 
 688
 00:21:37,340 --> 00:21:39,060
 clarify what evidence based
 
 689
 00:21:39,060 --> 00:21:40,140
 means, yeah, because.
 
 690
 00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:44,030
 My work is evidence based
 
 691
 00:21:44,510 --> 00:21:46,350
 evident, but it is really a
 
 692
 00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:48,350
 term which came out of
 
 693
 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:50,550
 evidence based medicine over
 
 694
 00:21:50,550 --> 00:21:53,150
 the last 50 years. They
 
 695
 00:21:53,150 --> 00:21:55,550
 simply understood nobody can
 
 696
 00:21:55,550 --> 00:21:56,830
 read all of the literature.
 
 697
 00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:59,430
 And pub Med alone, which
 
 698
 00:21:59,430 --> 00:22:01,190
 is 1/4  ofthe medic
 
 699
 00:22:01,190 --> 00:22:02,670
 biomedical literature gets
 
 700
 00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:04,830
  1,000,000 articles per year.
 
 701
 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:07,470
 Yeah. So this is this is not
 
 702
 00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:08,430
 readable. Nobody can
 
 703
 00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:09,790
 understand it. Also then you
 
 704
 00:22:09,790 --> 00:22:11,710
 need somebody to also or
 
 705
 00:22:11,710 --> 00:22:13,860
 groups or people. Who are
 
 706
 00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:15,460
 condensing this information
 
 707
 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:18,060
 to something which isdigestible and and so
 
 708
 00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:21,260
 systematic reviews have been
 
 709
 00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:23,740
 developed. And this was
 
 710
 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:24,820
 really revolutionary. It was
 
 711
 00:22:24,820 --> 00:22:26,340
 not no longer the boss, the
 
 712
 00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:27,660
 one who was paid best, who
 
 713
 00:22:27,660 --> 00:22:29,540
 was always right in medicine,
 
 714
 00:22:29,540 --> 00:22:31,780
 but suddenly the one who
 
 715
 00:22:31,780 --> 00:22:33,340
 could refer to such type of
 
 716
 00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:35,660
 condensed evidence is right.
 
 717
 00:22:36,260 --> 00:22:38,940
 And I was fascinated by this
 
 718
 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:41,870
 as a student postdoc. As a
 
 719
 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:43,230
 clinical pharmacologist at
 
 720
 00:22:43,230 --> 00:22:44,980
 the time. When I moved to
 
 721
 00:22:44,980 --> 00:22:47,460
 toxicology in 2002,  I
 
 722
 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,100
 started what is now called
 
 723
 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:50,780
 evidence based toxicology and
 
 724
 00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:51,820
 I actually have a chair here
 
 725
 00:22:51,820 --> 00:22:53,100
 in Hopkins for evidence based
 
 726
 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:55,660
 toxicology. We are trying to
 
 727
 00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:57,020
 apply the very same
 
 728
 00:22:57,220 --> 00:22:58,860
 approaches of systematic
 
 729
 00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:01,020
 reviews, meta analysis, risk
 
 730
 00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:02,420
 of bias analysis to
 
 731
 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:04,100
 toxicological problems.
 
 732
 00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:06,940
 And for me, this is really, I
 
 733
 00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:08,860
 was an eye opening step.
 
 734
 00:23:08,860 --> 00:23:10,790
 Yeah. When you when you only
 
 735
 00:23:10,790 --> 00:23:13,070
 start to develop criteria,
 
 736
 00:23:13,070 --> 00:23:14,270
 what would you accept as
 
 737
 00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:15,710
 evidence to answer a certain
 
 738
 00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:17,540
 question?You, you suddenly
 
 739
 00:23:17,540 --> 00:23:19,020
 understand how bad most of
 
 740
 00:23:19,020 --> 00:23:21,940
 science is. Yeah, we do lousy
 
 741
 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:23,780
 statistics. We are lousy in
 
 742
 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:26,260
 our reporting. Yeah, almost
 
 743
 00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:28,620
 every paper is incomplete in
 
 744
 00:23:28,620 --> 00:23:30,700
 key aspects of of the work.
 
 745
 00:23:31,620 --> 00:23:32,620
 And this is something which
 
 746
 00:23:32,620 --> 00:23:33,900
 is really has changed
 
 747
 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:35,420
 clinical medicine and I hope
 
 748
 00:23:35,420 --> 00:23:37,020
 it will also change the
 
 749
 00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:38,420
 preclinical sciences at some
 
 750
 00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:40,780
 point. Right. OK. So, I mean,
 
 751
 00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:42,140
 Marianna, Steve, have you got
 
 752
 00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:43,220
 anything to add to that at
 
 753
 00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:44,780
 all? So, so I, I, I do
 
 754
 00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:46,980
 actually, I find Thomas. For
 
 755
 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:49,900
 new evaluation of this is
 
 756
 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:50,660
 quite interesting in
 
 757
 00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:52,140
 particular the part in which
 
 758
 00:23:52,140 --> 00:23:53,060
 you say that a lot of the
 
 759
 00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:54,060
 scientific papers are
 
 760
 00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:55,260
 incomplete. I completely
 
 761
 00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:57,420
 agree with you on on this. I
 
 762
 00:23:57,420 --> 00:23:59,780
 think that this opens another
 
 763
 00:23:59,780 --> 00:24:02,260
 Pandora box that
 
 764
 00:24:02,860 --> 00:24:05,060
 you know has maybe we should
 
 765
 00:24:05,060 --> 00:24:06,820
 have a podcast on on that.
 
 766
 00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:08,540
 And the reason there is that
 
 767
 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:10,950
 you know. How
 
 768
 00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:13,390
 scientists manage to
 
 769
 00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:15,910
 get grants and move forward,
 
 770
 00:24:15,910 --> 00:24:17,070
 you know, and how they
 
 771
 00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:19,860
 managed to. Yet to go to the
 
 772
 00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:21,100
 next step. I mean, the truth
 
 773
 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:22,340
 of the matter is that the
 
 774
 00:24:22,340 --> 00:24:24,900
 work is incomplete because
 
 775
 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:26,540
 we don't have money to
 
 776
 00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:28,740
 complete it or because we
 
 777
 00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:30,660
 need to publish it to to have
 
 778
 00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:32,140
 an evidence based for another
 
 779
 00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:33,460
 grant that we want to write.
 
 780
 00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:36,380
 So, so the system there is a
 
 781
 00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:39,220
 bit kind of difficult, but
 
 782
 00:24:39,220 --> 00:24:40,340
 that of course is a bit
 
 783
 00:24:40,340 --> 00:24:41,940
 deviating from the ethics
 
 784
 00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:43,620
 that we were we were
 
 785
 00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:45,580
 discussing again, you know,
 
 786
 00:24:45,660 --> 00:24:48,350
 but yeah. Yes, I know. I mean
 
 787
 00:24:48,350 --> 00:24:49,230
 the the I think you're,
 
 788
 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:50,310
 you're right. The problem is
 
 789
 00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:52,470
 that we are astonishingly
 
 790
 00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:53,830
 little self critical as
 
 791
 00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:55,460
 scientists. Because we are
 
 792
 00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:58,020
 trained not to be. You will
 
 793
 00:24:58,020 --> 00:24:59,580
 never write a scientific
 
 794
 00:24:59,580 --> 00:25:01,580
 paper. This is a model with
 
 795
 00:25:01,580 --> 00:25:03,060
 these shortcomings, but I use
 
 796
 00:25:03,060 --> 00:25:04,420
 it. You will always talk.
 
 797
 00:25:04,420 --> 00:25:05,700
 It's the state-of-the-art.
 
 798
 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:06,820
 Because you want the next
 
 799
 00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:08,260
 grant. You want to publish.
 
 800
 00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:09,900
 You want to know what's for
 
 801
 00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:11,820
 your work. So we are always
 
 802
 00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:13,740
 overselling, and never.
 
 803
 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:17,830
 In retrospect, saying this
 
 804
 00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:19,390
 paper should be read with a
 
 805
 00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:21,950
 bit of caution, with a grain
 
 806
 00:25:21,950 --> 00:25:24,670
 of salt. As we say in in, in
 
 807
 00:25:24,670 --> 00:25:26,110
 a few years later, no, it
 
 808
 00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:29,020
 stands an eternity. And
 
 809
 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:30,340
 so we're, we're really not
 
 810
 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:31,380
 doing a good job on this.
 
 811
 00:25:31,380 --> 00:25:32,980
 Yeah, no, but I agree. But
 
 812
 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:34,780
 it's also, I think how in a
 
 813
 00:25:34,780 --> 00:25:36,660
 way it is, it is totally our
 
 814
 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:37,900
 fault in which we do this.
 
 815
 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:40,140
 But it is also we are forced
 
 816
 00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:41,420
 in a, in, in a certain
 
 817
 00:25:41,420 --> 00:25:44,300
 direction to do things like
 
 818
 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:46,260
 this. You know, I mean, in
 
 819
 00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:48,260
 it's, it's actually quite
 
 820
 00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:50,620
 interesting because you, you,
 
 821
 00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:51,900
 the literature, you know, you
 
 822
 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:52,900
 were talking about this one
 
 823
 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,020
 million, you know, papers in
 
 824
 00:25:55,020 --> 00:25:56,740
 Bob and of the 1,000,000
 
 825
 00:25:56,740 --> 00:25:58,420
 papers that are involved. I
 
 826
 00:25:58,420 --> 00:26:00,300
 mean, a big percentage of
 
 827
 00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:01,940
 this is maybe crap, you know,
 
 828
 00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:03,860
 that shouldn't be in, in, in
 
 829
 00:26:03,860 --> 00:26:06,340
 pub Med, right? And but how
 
 830
 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,260
 to figure out what is crap
 
 831
 00:26:08,260 --> 00:26:09,660
 and what is what is not? I
 
 832
 00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:12,180
 mean, and how to mine all of
 
 833
 00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:14,220
 this. It's I, I, I, I think,
 
 834
 00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:16,740
 I think with the advancing
 
 835
 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:18,020
 of, you know, the
 
 836
 00:26:18,020 --> 00:26:20,020
 technologies and the
 
 837
 00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:21,460
 fastenings of computers and
 
 838
 00:26:21,460 --> 00:26:23,420
 stuff like that, I think our
 
 839
 00:26:23,420 --> 00:26:24,820
 job is a little bit more
 
 840
 00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:26,420
 complicated than what it was.
 
 841
 00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:28,910
 A bit before, but you know it
 
 842
 00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:31,380
 does open many more. Venues
 
 843
 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:34,380
 for us to explore, I think.
 
 844
 00:26:36,350 --> 00:26:37,710
 You have seen the sidelines
 
 845
 00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:39,870
 quietly. So yes, please give
 
 846
 00:26:39,870 --> 00:26:41,470
 it your point of view. I
 
 847
 00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:43,950
 have, I have a few examples.
 
 848
 00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:45,030
 I mean, you know, we're we're
 
 849
 00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:47,430
 all afraid of of telling
 
 850
 00:26:47,630 --> 00:26:49,310
 telling a story that isn't
 
 851
 00:26:49,310 --> 00:26:51,190
 going to be a story that
 
 852
 00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:52,310
 people would be interested in
 
 853
 00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:53,710
 and that all that can also,
 
 854
 00:26:53,790 --> 00:26:54,830
 you know, shift things
 
 855
 00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:56,030
 towards being you want to
 
 856
 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:57,230
 tell a more positive story.
 
 857
 00:26:57,230 --> 00:26:59,070
 But but sometimes and also in
 
 858
 00:26:59,070 --> 00:27:00,430
 my own experience in the last
 
 859
 00:27:00,430 --> 00:27:03,110
 years. Telling, you know,
 
 860
 00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:04,900
 being critical. And telling a
 
 861
 00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:06,180
 negative story, if, if you
 
 862
 00:27:06,180 --> 00:27:08,020
 want to call it that, you
 
 863
 00:27:08,020 --> 00:27:09,940
 know, reviewers and readers
 
 864
 00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:11,580
 can, they can like that if
 
 865
 00:27:11,580 --> 00:27:12,740
 you, if you write it in the,
 
 866
 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:14,620
 in the right way. And I'll
 
 867
 00:27:14,620 --> 00:27:17,380
 just give one example. We
 
 868
 00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:20,260
 were, we, we were describing
 
 869
 00:27:20,260 --> 00:27:22,980
 a, an approach that we found
 
 870
 00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:24,620
 not to work. It was an
 
 871
 00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:26,060
 analytical chemistry approach
 
 872
 00:27:26,060 --> 00:27:28,460
 that we, we saw promise in,
 
 873
 00:27:28,460 --> 00:27:30,380
 but it, it just did not work.
 
 874
 00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:32,300
 And we, but we felt it was
 
 875
 00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:33,940
 important enough to, to
 
 876
 00:27:33,940 --> 00:27:35,540
 describe. Because others
 
 877
 00:27:35,540 --> 00:27:36,740
 could probably learn from,
 
 878
 00:27:36,740 --> 00:27:38,500
 from that, but we were
 
 879
 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:39,500
 interested in seeing what the
 
 880
 00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:41,540
 reviewer said. We sent this
 
 881
 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:42,900
 to, you know, it's a, it was
 
 882
 00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:44,020
 a specialty journal in the
 
 883
 00:27:44,020 --> 00:27:46,660
 field. And, and
 
 884
 00:27:46,660 --> 00:27:48,540
 the, the first reviewer, I
 
 885
 00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:50,420
 remember the PhD student like
 
 886
 00:27:50,420 --> 00:27:52,500
 burst out into jubilation
 
 887
 00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:54,140
 down the hall and say, oh,
 
 888
 00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:55,540
 you know, minor revision. And
 
 889
 00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:57,180
 the, and the, the first
 
 890
 00:27:57,180 --> 00:27:59,380
 reviewer had the one line
 
 891
 00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:01,710
 review. And that was a
 
 892
 00:28:01,710 --> 00:28:03,470
 brilliant manuscript. Tells
 
 893
 00:28:03,470 --> 00:28:05,150
 us the bitter truth.
 
 894
 00:28:06,980 --> 00:28:08,660
 And that was so cool, you
 
 895
 00:28:08,660 --> 00:28:11,660
 know, it was like, so I doubt
 
 896
 00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:13,700
 that those types of stories
 
 897
 00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:15,180
 will make it to the top of
 
 898
 00:28:15,180 --> 00:28:16,980
 the top journals, of course,
 
 899
 00:28:17,420 --> 00:28:20,230
 but. But you can
 
 900
 00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:22,430
 publish, you know, you know,
 
 901
 00:28:22,510 --> 00:28:23,870
 honest and decent work, I
 
 902
 00:28:23,910 --> 00:28:26,270
 find and being self critical.
 
 903
 00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:27,550
 And, you know, I think a lot
 
 904
 00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:28,910
 of reviewers and readers will
 
 905
 00:28:28,910 --> 00:28:30,430
 appreciate that even if you,
 
 906
 00:28:30,590 --> 00:28:32,510
 if you, if you do, do it
 
 907
 00:28:32,510 --> 00:28:34,070
 right, written in an honest
 
 908
 00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:35,270
 and constructive way.
 
 909
 00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:39,580
 No, but this is the exception
 
 910
 00:28:39,580 --> 00:28:40,980
 from the rule, which is
 
 911
 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:43,580
 proving the rule. I
 
 912
 00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:45,180
 had one paper where they
 
 913
 00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:47,420
 congratulate us for ourbrutal honesty.
 
 914
 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:51,070
 Which I, which I was really
 
 915
 00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:52,910
 led to similar reactions. But
 
 916
 00:28:52,990 --> 00:28:54,870
 you can only do it so often.
 
 917
 00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:57,750
 The body of science is simply
 
 918
 00:28:58,790 --> 00:28:59,830
 petting each other on the
 
 919
 00:28:59,830 --> 00:29:02,350
 back end. Yeah, sure. Now,
 
 920
 00:29:02,350 --> 00:29:03,710
 Thomas, obviously we've
 
 921
 00:29:03,710 --> 00:29:05,590
 talked about what actually
 
 922
 00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:08,020
 is. Evidence based,
 
 923
 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:10,460
 but so going back then. So
 
 924
 00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:11,420
 what are some of the examples
 
 925
 00:29:11,420 --> 00:29:12,820
 of why another can't
 
 926
 00:29:12,820 --> 00:29:15,460
 represent a human?So
 
 927
 00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:17,260
 it didn't get it. What are
 
 928
 00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:20,020
 some examples of why another
 
 929
 00:29:20,020 --> 00:29:21,460
 can't represent a human?
 
 930
 00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:24,940
 Another cult? I will very
 
 931
 00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:26,260
 soon misspelt this.
 
 932
 00:29:28,390 --> 00:29:29,350
 Well, let's go back, I think.
 
 933
 00:29:31,070 --> 00:29:32,710
 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean,
 
 934
 00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:34,150
 if you look into.
 
 935
 00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:38,190
 Mice and rats predict each
 
 936
 00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:40,350
 other by about 60% in
 
 937
 00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:43,230
 toxicological tests, which
 
 938
 00:29:43,470 --> 00:29:45,550
 is means simply.
 
 939
 00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:47,620
 There's no reason to assume
 
 940
 00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:49,380
 they predict us any better.
 
 941
 00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:52,380
 And indeed, if you look.
 
 942
 00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:55,830
 We do most of the toxicology
 
 943
 00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:58,110
 of drugs when the clinical
 
 944
 00:29:58,110 --> 00:29:59,310
 trials already start. You
 
 945
 00:29:59,390 --> 00:30:00,670
 know this, this is something
 
 946
 00:30:00,750 --> 00:30:02,630
 most people don't know, but
 
 947
 00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:05,070
 it is for cost and logistical
 
 948
 00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:06,830
 reasons. Most of this is done
 
 949
 00:30:06,830 --> 00:30:08,710
 later. And so you very often
 
 950
 00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:11,630
 can ask, would we have seen
 
 951
 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:13,350
 what we saw in the first
 
 952
 00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:14,390
 patients and the first
 
 953
 00:30:14,390 --> 00:30:15,750
 volunteers who received this
 
 954
 00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:18,500
 drug?In inanimous and the
 
 955
 00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:21,140
 result is 43 to 48% of these
 
 956
 00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:24,020
 things are predicted by mice
 
 957
 00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:25,580
 and rats and other rodents.
 
 958
 00:30:25,660 --> 00:30:28,300
 So it's a it is really a
 
 959
 00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:31,380
 very imperfect tool and
 
 960
 00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:33,100
 we should not assume that any
 
 961
 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:34,460
 other animal test is any
 
 962
 00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:36,020
 better because they are much
 
 963
 00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:38,020
 less standardised. They're
 
 964
 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:39,660
 not done with the high doses
 
 965
 00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:41,420
 of toxicology which gives you
 
 966
 00:30:41,780 --> 00:30:44,110
 very clear results. So I I
 
 967
 00:30:44,110 --> 00:30:46,580
 really believe that. The most
 
 968
 00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:47,620
 important thing is animal
 
 969
 00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:49,140
 tests are overestimated in
 
 970
 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:50,380
 what they can tell. They're
 
 971
 00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:52,020
 not useless. They have done,
 
 972
 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:53,420
 they have helped us to
 
 973
 00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:54,900
 clarify quite a few things,
 
 974
 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:57,700
 but they are overestimated
 
 975
 00:30:57,700 --> 00:30:58,940
 in what they really mean for
 
 976
 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:00,500
 humans. We're not 70,
 
 977
 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:02,260
 comrades, right? I'm very
 
 978
 00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:03,220
 honest. Steve, have you got
 
 979
 00:31:03,220 --> 00:31:04,340
 anything to add to that at
 
 980
 00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:07,100
 all?Well, I mean, I, I
 
 981
 00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:09,220
 agree. I mean, there's we,
 
 982
 00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:12,060
 we, we do a lot of I mean, we
 
 983
 00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:14,910
 are still. An animal
 
 984
 00:31:15,030 --> 00:31:16,670
 lab, but to a certain extent
 
 985
 00:31:16,670 --> 00:31:19,630
 so it's but one of the
 
 986
 00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:20,310
 things that.
 
 987
 00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:26,190
 The reason why we we we
 
 988
 00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:28,430
 focus a lot on animal work is
 
 989
 00:31:28,430 --> 00:31:29,950
 because right now.
 
 990
 00:31:31,950 --> 00:31:33,270
 Our tools for modelling some
 
 991
 00:31:33,270 --> 00:31:35,030
 aspects are still not there
 
 992
 00:31:35,030 --> 00:31:37,140
 yet. And in particular
 
 993
 00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:40,140
 the the role the immune
 
 994
 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:42,540
 system of course plays in in,
 
 995
 00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:44,500
 in the cancer progression
 
 996
 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:45,820
 initiation and the drug
 
 997
 00:31:45,820 --> 00:31:47,980
 response and all this. So in
 
 998
 00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:50,580
 a way we are kind of forced
 
 999
 00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:53,580
 to try to use the more
 
 1000
 00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:56,300
 complex live system.
 
 1001
 00:31:58,070 --> 00:32:00,070
 I've been working with live
 
 1002
 00:32:00,070 --> 00:32:02,230
 animals for the past 20 years
 
 1003
 00:32:02,230 --> 00:32:04,790
 and I honestly think that.
 
 1004
 00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:09,130
 It's not necessary to keep on
 
 1005
 00:32:09,130 --> 00:32:10,970
 doing that. I think that we
 
 1006
 00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:12,970
 are going towards the
 
 1007
 00:32:12,970 --> 00:32:15,370
 direction that we will be
 
 1008
 00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:17,890
 able to replace the animal
 
 1009
 00:32:17,890 --> 00:32:19,930
 work that we do with
 
 1010
 00:32:20,450 --> 00:32:22,530
 work with organoids with more
 
 1011
 00:32:22,530 --> 00:32:25,210
 complex systems with organs
 
 1012
 00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:27,850
 on chip and with also maybe
 
 1013
 00:32:27,850 --> 00:32:29,370
 parallel organs on chip,
 
 1014
 00:32:29,370 --> 00:32:31,090
 right to match the the
 
 1015
 00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:32,910
 different. The different
 
 1016
 00:32:32,910 --> 00:32:34,750
 systems and maybe have these
 
 1017
 00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:36,980
 cancer cells flow. For
 
 1018
 00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:38,940
 multiple kinds of organs, I
 
 1019
 00:32:38,940 --> 00:32:40,660
 do not believe that the
 
 1020
 00:32:40,660 --> 00:32:42,620
 future is still animal work.
 
 1021
 00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:45,540
 So. But with this said,
 
 1022
 00:32:46,340 --> 00:32:48,820
 my lab still works on with
 
 1023
 00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:50,740
 with the animals as well. And
 
 1024
 00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:52,180
 I think that part of the
 
 1025
 00:32:52,180 --> 00:32:54,100
 reason is also because
 
 1026
 00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,860
 of the culture
 
 1027
 00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:00,580
 of the of the scientists
 
 1028
 00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:03,310
 meaning. If I submit a paper
 
 1029
 00:33:04,150 --> 00:33:06,830
 and I have work that
 
 1030
 00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:09,540
 is. For example, on
 
 1031
 00:33:09,540 --> 00:33:10,940
 organise or on cell lines or
 
 1032
 00:33:10,940 --> 00:33:12,620
 on models that are not of a
 
 1033
 00:33:12,620 --> 00:33:15,100
 higher level, I can reach a
 
 1034
 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:17,940
 certain impact in terms of
 
 1035
 00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:19,740
 where I can send it.
 
 1036
 00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:22,420
 Whereas the reviewers will
 
 1037
 00:33:22,420 --> 00:33:23,780
 come back and say, well, if
 
 1038
 00:33:23,780 --> 00:33:25,460
 you do the in vivo experiment
 
 1039
 00:33:25,660 --> 00:33:27,820
 and you prove this. And so
 
 1040
 00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:29,380
 I've, I've, I've had this,
 
 1041
 00:33:29,380 --> 00:33:30,700
 this back and forth kind of
 
 1042
 00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:32,900
 situation several times
 
 1043
 00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:36,030
 and. I mean, in some cases
 
 1044
 00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:38,510
 I I just said no and I pulled
 
 1045
 00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:40,310
 the paper and went somewhere
 
 1046
 00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:42,700
 else. But in other case, I
 
 1047
 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:45,380
 did bow to the
 
 1048
 00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:47,380
 request of the reviewer and
 
 1049
 00:33:47,380 --> 00:33:49,020
 did the animal experiment and
 
 1050
 00:33:49,020 --> 00:33:50,820
 got the paper in the higher
 
 1051
 00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:52,580
 impact and that is of course
 
 1052
 00:33:52,580 --> 00:33:55,190
 something. That I
 
 1053
 00:33:55,230 --> 00:33:58,150
 do also to push forward the
 
 1054
 00:33:58,150 --> 00:33:59,510
 kind of research I have and
 
 1055
 00:33:59,510 --> 00:34:00,910
 to have a certain visibility
 
 1056
 00:34:00,910 --> 00:34:03,030
 in the research I have that
 
 1057
 00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:05,630
 that we do. So I think it's a
 
 1058
 00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:07,430
 balance. You know, it's not
 
 1059
 00:34:07,470 --> 00:34:09,990
 always necessary to do the
 
 1060
 00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:12,190
 animal experiments. That's my
 
 1061
 00:34:12,270 --> 00:34:13,750
 take on this. Well, that's
 
 1062
 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:14,870
 interesting. So because
 
 1063
 00:34:14,870 --> 00:34:15,990
 you've actually preempted a
 
 1064
 00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:16,870
 couple of my questions. So
 
 1065
 00:34:16,870 --> 00:34:17,630
 I'm going to put that to
 
 1066
 00:34:17,630 --> 00:34:18,670
 Thomas and Steven as well,
 
 1067
 00:34:18,670 --> 00:34:20,820
 which is. Will we ever stop
 
 1068
 00:34:20,820 --> 00:34:23,420
 using research animals? And
 
 1069
 00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:24,980
 how can a simple organoid
 
 1070
 00:34:24,980 --> 00:34:26,780
 really replace a big animal?
 
 1071
 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:27,740
 I mean, Murray has sort of
 
 1072
 00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:28,740
 touched on it already in her
 
 1073
 00:34:28,740 --> 00:34:30,260
 answer, but Thomas, Stephen,
 
 1074
 00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:31,380
 what? What are your thoughts
 
 1075
 00:34:31,380 --> 00:34:33,420
 on those two questions? Will
 
 1076
 00:34:33,420 --> 00:34:34,660
 we ever stop using research
 
 1077
 00:34:34,660 --> 00:34:36,220
 animals and how can a simple
 
 1078
 00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:38,820
 organoid replace a big animal?
 
 1079
 00:34:40,940 --> 00:34:43,060
 I mean, I've, I did myself,
 
 1080
 00:34:43,180 --> 00:34:44,220
 my share of animal
 
 1081
 00:34:44,220 --> 00:34:45,700
 experiments. I was infectious
 
 1082
 00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:48,020
 diseases for, for for a
 
 1083
 00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:50,980
 while, but I'm I've
 
 1084
 00:34:50,980 --> 00:34:52,340
 really learned that we need
 
 1085
 00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:53,580
 them less and less
 
 1086
 00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:57,100
 because we are getting
 
 1087
 00:34:57,100 --> 00:34:58,540
 alternatives which are
 
 1088
 00:34:58,540 --> 00:35:00,620
 cheaper, faster, more human
 
 1089
 00:35:00,620 --> 00:35:03,060
 relevant. So there's economic
 
 1090
 00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:04,780
 reasons. There's also science
 
 1091
 00:35:04,780 --> 00:35:07,150
 economy in this. There's a
 
 1092
 00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:09,990
 Most of the animal studies
 
 1093
 00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:10,950
 we're doing are simply
 
 1094
 00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:12,750
 underpowered. We use far too
 
 1095
 00:35:12,750 --> 00:35:15,460
 few animals to. To really
 
 1096
 00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:17,300
 have achieved significant
 
 1097
 00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:19,060
 results, especially with the
 
 1098
 00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:20,220
 many things we are measuring
 
 1099
 00:35:20,220 --> 00:35:21,820
 at the same time, without
 
 1100
 00:35:21,820 --> 00:35:24,020
 correcting statistically for
 
 1101
 00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:26,860
 this, I believe that we
 
 1102
 00:35:26,860 --> 00:35:28,380
 will continue using animals.
 
 1103
 00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:30,780
 For example, like we have to
 
 1104
 00:35:30,780 --> 00:35:33,220
 test a drug ultimately in
 
 1105
 00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:34,740
 humans, we will have to test
 
 1106
 00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:36,460
 veterinary drugs in in
 
 1107
 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:39,110
 animals. We will have.
 
 1108
 00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:42,350
 Behavioural studies, which we
 
 1109
 00:35:42,350 --> 00:35:44,270
 cannot do in cell culture.
 
 1110
 00:35:45,260 --> 00:35:48,140
 Though this is all
 
 1111
 00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:49,780
 getting smaller and smaller
 
 1112
 00:35:49,780 --> 00:35:50,740
 and we are now working on
 
 1113
 00:35:50,740 --> 00:35:52,900
 learning and memory. Four
 
 1114
 00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:54,340
 years ago I would have said
 
 1115
 00:35:54,540 --> 00:35:55,620
 this is one good, a good
 
 1116
 00:35:55,620 --> 00:35:57,460
 example value where you need
 
 1117
 00:35:57,460 --> 00:36:00,460
 animals. Now we get
 
 1118
 00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:01,860
 the first basic things
 
 1119
 00:36:01,860 --> 00:36:02,900
 already in cell culture.
 
 1120
 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:04,540
 Yeah. So, so it's really, I
 
 1121
 00:36:04,540 --> 00:36:07,220
 think it gets less and less
 
 1122
 00:36:07,220 --> 00:36:09,500
 that we need them. Right. OK.
 
 1123
 00:36:10,110 --> 00:36:11,630
 And in terms of the use of
 
 1124
 00:36:11,630 --> 00:36:13,110
 organoids, I mean, do you
 
 1125
 00:36:13,110 --> 00:36:15,860
 think that is?They will be
 
 1126
 00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:17,380
 able to replace a big animal
 
 1127
 00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:18,460
 in, in terms of using a
 
 1128
 00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:19,740
 simple organisation in  that
 
 1129
 00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:22,460
 respect, yeah. I mean, what
 
 1130
 00:36:22,460 --> 00:36:24,740
 else? I mean, the the simple
 
 1131
 00:36:24,740 --> 00:36:26,100
 cell culture does not do the
 
 1132
 00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:28,140
 trick. Yeah, it does some
 
 1133
 00:36:28,140 --> 00:36:29,900
 tricks, but not the trick.
 
 1134
 00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:32,620
 No, because I mean, take an
 
 1135
 00:36:32,620 --> 00:36:33,780
 organ. Take the lung. Yeah.
 
 1136
 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:35,060
 The lung has more than 40
 
 1137
 00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:38,060
 cell types. Yeah. Which one
 
 1138
 00:36:38,060 --> 00:36:39,620
 will you study? All of them.
 
 1139
 00:36:40,270 --> 00:36:41,470
 In order and and what is the
 
 1140
 00:36:41,470 --> 00:36:44,110
 interplay? So we need
 
 1141
 00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:45,950
 really complex systems to
 
 1142
 00:36:45,950 --> 00:36:48,820
 understand. The more we want
 
 1143
 00:36:48,820 --> 00:36:50,980
 to move into multicellular
 
 1144
 00:36:50,980 --> 00:36:52,900
 functionalities, Physiology
 
 1145
 00:36:52,940 --> 00:36:54,020
 and this is, this is what
 
 1146
 00:36:54,020 --> 00:36:55,580
 most drug development, for
 
 1147
 00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:58,300
 example is about. But on the
 
 1148
 00:36:58,300 --> 00:36:59,020
 other hand, the animal
 
 1149
 00:36:59,020 --> 00:37:00,460
 experiments are also maxed
 
 1150
 00:37:00,460 --> 00:37:02,220
 out. You cannot do much more
 
 1151
 00:37:02,820 --> 00:37:04,580
 African humanised immune
 
 1152
 00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:05,500
 systemor certain cell type.
 
 1153
 00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,420
 But this is costly, reduces
 
 1154
 00:37:08,420 --> 00:37:09,860
 the throughput and it's still
 
 1155
 00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:11,580
 a mouse with with a few human
 
 1156
 00:37:11,580 --> 00:37:14,190
 cells. I think the the
 
 1157
 00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:15,750
 breakthrough is really with
 
 1158
 00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:17,030
 these technologies because
 
 1159
 00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:19,020
 you can scale them. We can
 
 1160
 00:37:19,020 --> 00:37:21,780
 robotize them and you can
 
 1161
 00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:23,900
 more and more plug and play
 
 1162
 00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:26,540
 different organs together. I
 
 1163
 00:37:26,580 --> 00:37:28,500
 think that with the pressure
 
 1164
 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:29,580
 of getting something
 
 1165
 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:31,100
 meaningful into our hands,
 
 1166
 00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:33,100
 these are the technologies of
 
 1167
 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,950
 the future. Steve, anything
 
 1168
 00:37:35,950 --> 00:37:37,470
 to add Thomas, I have to ask
 
 1169
 00:37:37,470 --> 00:37:39,670
 you regarding, you know,
 
 1170
 00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:41,390
 memory, learning, cognition
 
 1171
 00:37:41,390 --> 00:37:43,590
 and so forth. What is your
 
 1172
 00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:45,670
 experience with, is this
 
 1173
 00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:47,390
 catching on with in in
 
 1174
 00:37:47,390 --> 00:37:49,780
 psychology?Dietary
 
 1175
 00:37:50,220 --> 00:37:52,460
 pedagogics, do you know how
 
 1176
 00:37:52,460 --> 00:37:53,780
 how are these fields
 
 1177
 00:37:53,820 --> 00:37:55,740
 interacting in these, in
 
 1178
 00:37:55,740 --> 00:37:58,180
 these new, new technologies?
 
 1179
 00:37:58,780 --> 00:38:00,260
 I think this is too early
 
 1180
 00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:01,900
 because we're absolutely not
 
 1181
 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:02,940
 talking about higher
 
 1182
 00:38:02,940 --> 00:38:04,940
 functions. It is really about
 
 1183
 00:38:04,940 --> 00:38:06,220
 the machinery for.
 
 1184
 00:38:08,030 --> 00:38:08,950
 Controlling a little video
 
 1185
 00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:11,390
 game. This is the level where
 
 1186
 00:38:11,390 --> 00:38:13,270
 we are at the moment. Pong
 
 1187
 00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:15,430
 playing cell cultures. Yeah.
 
 1188
 00:38:15,630 --> 00:38:17,350
 So this is this. This is
 
 1189
 00:38:17,350 --> 00:38:18,790
 where you can show there is
 
 1190
 00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:20,110
 an improvement and we are
 
 1191
 00:38:20,110 --> 00:38:22,030
 only at the brink of getting
 
 1192
 00:38:22,030 --> 00:38:23,030
 long term learning
 
 1193
 00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:25,900
 established. But the
 
 1194
 00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:28,900
 cellular mechanisms we can
 
 1195
 00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:30,940
 already start studying, and
 
 1196
 00:38:30,940 --> 00:38:32,220
 now we look into disease
 
 1197
 00:38:32,220 --> 00:38:34,380
 models. Can we model dementia
 
 1198
 00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:35,860
 by taking cells from an
 
 1199
 00:38:35,860 --> 00:38:38,220
 Alzheimer patient? Or can we
 
 1200
 00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:40,980
 understand which chemicals,
 
 1201
 00:38:40,980 --> 00:38:42,580
 which drugs are negatively
 
 1202
 00:38:42,580 --> 00:38:44,140
 impacting on cognitive
 
 1203
 00:38:44,220 --> 00:38:46,300
 abilities? This is the
 
 1204
 00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:48,900
 future. But psychology?
 
 1205
 00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:51,390
 You are safe for at least
 
 1206
 00:38:51,390 --> 00:38:54,100
 another decade. Yeah. But
 
 1207
 00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:56,220
 but do you, do you, have you
 
 1208
 00:38:56,220 --> 00:38:58,620
 sensed any, I mean are, are
 
 1209
 00:38:58,620 --> 00:39:00,180
 these, do you know if these
 
 1210
 00:39:00,180 --> 00:39:01,380
 types of researchers are at
 
 1211
 00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:03,700
 all aware of that these of
 
 1212
 00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:05,420
 these technologies that are
 
 1213
 00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:07,140
 emerging that can be one day
 
 1214
 00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:09,620
 used or is this still still
 
 1215
 00:39:09,620 --> 00:39:12,140
 kind of in the in the other
 
 1216
 00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:14,660
 department, so to speak? I
 
 1217
 00:39:14,660 --> 00:39:16,100
 mean, when we came up with
 
 1218
 00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:17,140
 the concept of organ
 
 1219
 00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:19,790
 intelligence. Why 18 months
 
 1220
 00:39:19,790 --> 00:39:22,710
 ago we had 600
 
 1221
 00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:24,830
 press hits from CNN to BBC.
 
 1222
 00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:27,700
 Financial Times and Wall
 
 1223
 00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:29,340
 Street Journal, Forbes, name
 
 1224
 00:39:29,340 --> 00:39:31,060
 them. Everybody was reporting
 
 1225
 00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:32,180
 on this year, but on the
 
 1226
 00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:34,620
 level which is not deep
 
 1227
 00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:36,380
 scientific. And I've also to
 
 1228
 00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:39,100
 say this was a balloon. We
 
 1229
 00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:41,220
 started loudly and it might
 
 1230
 00:39:41,220 --> 00:39:43,180
 implode silently at some,
 
 1231
 00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:45,940
 but it's because it was
 
 1232
 00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:47,620
 concept, a lot of concept
 
 1233
 00:39:47,620 --> 00:39:49,380
 showing that the elements are
 
 1234
 00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:51,990
 there and that we now. As a
 
 1235
 00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:53,190
 scientific community can work
 
 1236
 00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:55,900
 towards making it happen. And
 
 1237
 00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:56,900
 this is what we're doing at
 
 1238
 00:39:56,900 --> 00:39:58,100
 the moment. So we're forming
 
 1239
 00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:00,100
 community and and we are
 
 1240
 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:01,620
 trying to help each other
 
 1241
 00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:05,060
 because it takes a lot, takes
 
 1242
 00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:06,900
 a village to get
 
 1243
 00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:10,460
 memory into, into a cell
 
 1244
 00:40:10,460 --> 00:40:13,310
 culture. I've got one
 
 1245
 00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:15,470
 final question in relation to
 
 1246
 00:40:15,630 --> 00:40:17,350
 moving away from animal
 
 1247
 00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:18,790
 techniques and that is what
 
 1248
 00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:19,710
 what do you see as the
 
 1249
 00:40:19,710 --> 00:40:21,030
 biggest obstacle science
 
 1250
 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:23,550
 faces in adopting non animal
 
 1251
 00:40:23,550 --> 00:40:24,710
 techniques and what can be
 
 1252
 00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:25,950
 done to overcome them? So
 
 1253
 00:40:25,950 --> 00:40:27,110
 who'd like to kick that off?
 
 1254
 00:40:29,790 --> 00:40:30,630
 Silent.
 
 1255
 00:40:34,750 --> 00:40:36,910
 Dominate the discussion. I'm
 
 1256
 00:40:36,910 --> 00:40:37,950
 directing centres for
 
 1257
 00:40:37,950 --> 00:40:39,110
 turnovers to animal testing
 
 1258
 00:40:39,110 --> 00:40:40,510
 so it's our messaging. We're
 
 1259
 00:40:40,510 --> 00:40:42,790
 trying to do exactly this and
 
 1260
 00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:45,390
 I tell you it is non
 
 1261
 00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:46,710
 scientific reasons.
 
 1262
 00:40:48,670 --> 00:40:49,630
 One of the reasons I see is
 
 1263
 00:40:49,630 --> 00:40:51,470
 that very few researchers
 
 1264
 00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:54,310
 change their methodology. If
 
 1265
 00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:55,670
 you are an animal researcher,
 
 1266
 00:40:56,270 --> 00:40:57,550
 you have an animal lab. We
 
 1267
 00:40:57,550 --> 00:40:59,030
 have people who are taking
 
 1268
 00:40:59,030 --> 00:41:01,060
 care of these animals. And
 
 1269
 00:41:01,060 --> 00:41:02,540
 you will always find the next
 
 1270
 00:41:02,540 --> 00:41:04,260
 project to keep them in job.
 
 1271
 00:41:04,940 --> 00:41:07,260
 It's it takes a lot typically
 
 1272
 00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:08,340
 a movement to another
 
 1273
 00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:10,340
 university that you rethink
 
 1274
 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:13,140
 how you're working. It takes
 
 1275
 00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:14,580
 the recruitment of a new
 
 1276
 00:41:14,620 --> 00:41:16,380
 chair of a department to
 
 1277
 00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:18,860
 really renew and revamp what
 
 1278
 00:41:18,860 --> 00:41:21,860
 is taking place. Thomas ****
 
 1279
 00:41:21,860 --> 00:41:24,220
 already in 1970 in in this in
 
 1280
 00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:25,620
 his famous book about the
 
 1281
 00:41:25,620 --> 00:41:26,540
 nature of scientific
 
 1282
 00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:28,790
 revolutions. Described that
 
 1283
 00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:30,590
 science is not changing.
 
 1284
 00:41:32,380 --> 00:41:34,420
 Linearly, but in waves,
 
 1285
 00:41:35,140 --> 00:41:36,820
 he wrote. Essentially, these
 
 1286
 00:41:36,820 --> 00:41:38,380
 waves are exactly this time
 
 1287
 00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:39,940
 points when when somebody
 
 1288
 00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:41,460
 retires. And I have to say in
 
 1289
 00:41:41,460 --> 00:41:44,140
 the meantime, we don't change
 
 1290
 00:41:44,140 --> 00:41:45,580
 one retirement at the time.
 
 1291
 00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:46,820
 Unfortunately, we change one
 
 1292
 00:41:46,820 --> 00:41:48,300
 gravestone at the time
 
 1293
 00:41:48,580 --> 00:41:50,300
 because these people continue
 
 1294
 00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:51,780
 as the reviewers of our
 
 1295
 00:41:51,780 --> 00:41:53,740
 grants and papers and request
 
 1296
 00:41:53,740 --> 00:41:55,580
 exactly the experiments as
 
 1297
 00:41:55,580 --> 00:41:56,460
 discussed earlier.
 
 1298
 00:41:58,390 --> 00:42:00,030
 Any anything to add to it for
 
 1299
 00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:02,940
 anybody?Yeah, I
 
 1300
 00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:05,540
 think, I think that I cannot
 
 1301
 00:42:05,540 --> 00:42:07,060
 speak for Europe, but I think
 
 1302
 00:42:07,060 --> 00:42:08,580
 in Switzerland they are
 
 1303
 00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:10,100
 really trying. So the three
 
 1304
 00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:12,500
 arm movement is really tryingto.
 
 1305
 00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:17,670
 I want to say raise awareness
 
 1306
 00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:20,510
 in in the fact that
 
 1307
 00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:22,550
 it is possible to.
 
 1308
 00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:27,350
 To do experiments, to be away
 
 1309
 00:42:27,350 --> 00:42:28,710
 from the animals, and I think
 
 1310
 00:42:28,710 --> 00:42:30,950
 that they are doing a really.
 
 1311
 00:42:31,820 --> 00:42:34,180
 Good job in trying to
 
 1312
 00:42:34,180 --> 00:42:36,460
 train the next generation of
 
 1313
 00:42:36,460 --> 00:42:37,900
 scientists, because I think,
 
 1314
 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:39,100
 Thomas, you are right, I
 
 1315
 00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:42,030
 mean. We
 
 1316
 00:42:42,510 --> 00:42:44,750
 try to, or at least we try to
 
 1317
 00:42:44,750 --> 00:42:47,230
 move away from the animals
 
 1318
 00:42:47,230 --> 00:42:49,350
 experiment. But in fact it's
 
 1319
 00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:51,430
 the next generation probably
 
 1320
 00:42:51,430 --> 00:42:53,030
 that will succeed in this
 
 1321
 00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:54,430
 because we will be the
 
 1322
 00:42:54,430 --> 00:42:56,550
 reviewers of that generation.
 
 1323
 00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:58,270
 Let's say so. And we know
 
 1324
 00:42:58,270 --> 00:42:59,710
 that, let's say we we.
 
 1325
 00:43:01,910 --> 00:43:03,900
 I mean, I won't ask. As a
 
 1326
 00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:06,580
 reviewer for the next animal
 
 1327
 00:43:06,580 --> 00:43:08,940
 experiment, if the if they
 
 1328
 00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:10,380
 haven't done that in a paper,
 
 1329
 00:43:10,380 --> 00:43:11,340
 you know that that's what I
 
 1330
 00:43:11,340 --> 00:43:13,060
 mean. I mean, I feel that
 
 1331
 00:43:13,180 --> 00:43:15,020
 some some of these animals
 
 1332
 00:43:15,020 --> 00:43:17,140
 experiments are unnecessary
 
 1333
 00:43:17,140 --> 00:43:18,940
 and will not bring an
 
 1334
 00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:21,580
 advantage to the study that
 
 1335
 00:43:21,580 --> 00:43:23,380
 they are having that I just
 
 1336
 00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:24,980
 think that what we have to do
 
 1337
 00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:27,940
 is learn to and design
 
 1338
 00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:29,420
 our experiments in a
 
 1339
 00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:31,830
 different way. Away from the
 
 1340
 00:43:31,830 --> 00:43:33,550
 animal experiment, but using
 
 1341
 00:43:33,550 --> 00:43:35,580
 the tools. That slowly are
 
 1342
 00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:38,020
 coming to us. Let's say this
 
 1343
 00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:40,100
 is do you have to turn it
 
 1344
 00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:41,700
 around? We have to ask for
 
 1345
 00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:43,780
 the microphysiologicalsystems for
 
 1346
 00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:45,260
 the organisation. So  ifyou
 
 1347
 00:43:45,260 --> 00:43:46,980
 come with a mouse experiment,
 
 1348
 00:43:46,980 --> 00:43:48,140
 you should ask, is this
 
 1349
 00:43:48,140 --> 00:43:49,660
 relevant to humans? Show it
 
 1350
 00:43:49,660 --> 00:43:52,020
 in an in a human complex in
 
 1351
 00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:54,060
 vitro system. I love that. I
 
 1352
 00:43:54,060 --> 00:43:55,860
 think that's fantastic. It's
 
 1353
 00:43:55,860 --> 00:43:57,060
 a really, really, I think
 
 1354
 00:43:57,060 --> 00:43:57,940
 this should be like the
 
 1355
 00:43:57,940 --> 00:43:59,420
 highlight of this podcast.
 
 1356
 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:03,790
 Of this fantastic. I think
 
 1357
 00:44:03,790 --> 00:44:05,070
 you have said it really,
 
 1358
 00:44:05,070 --> 00:44:07,820
 really. You have I I will
 
 1359
 00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:10,660
 quote you at the next threehour.
 
 1360
 00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:16,110
 But there's there's certainly
 
 1361
 00:44:16,110 --> 00:44:17,070
 you're completely there's
 
 1362
 00:44:17,070 --> 00:44:18,470
 much more to this. I mean,
 
 1363
 00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:19,710
 I'm part of this three arm
 
 1364
 00:44:19,710 --> 00:44:21,670
 movement now for for 35
 
 1365
 00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:23,470
 years. And we are it
 
 1366
 00:44:24,350 --> 00:44:26,670
 is by increasing the
 
 1367
 00:44:26,670 --> 00:44:28,350
 doubt, demonstrating with
 
 1368
 00:44:28,350 --> 00:44:30,470
 objective data what we can
 
 1369
 00:44:30,470 --> 00:44:31,670
 get and what we can't get
 
 1370
 00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:34,110
 from from animals. That's
 
 1371
 00:44:34,110 --> 00:44:35,710
 that's, that's an
 
 1372
 00:44:36,990 --> 00:44:37,790
 important one. Is this by
 
 1373
 00:44:37,790 --> 00:44:39,630
 raising standards of animal
 
 1374
 00:44:39,630 --> 00:44:41,030
 welfare standards and others,
 
 1375
 00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:42,590
 making it more costly and
 
 1376
 00:44:42,590 --> 00:44:44,430
 more difficult to carry out
 
 1377
 00:44:44,430 --> 00:44:46,300
 animal experiments?But these
 
 1378
 00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:47,940
 are then on better quality
 
 1379
 00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:50,740
 and more meaningful. And then
 
 1380
 00:44:50,740 --> 00:44:52,420
 it is about demonstrating
 
 1381
 00:44:52,580 --> 00:44:53,580
 that the new things are
 
 1382
 00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:56,340
 there. Our series of worksummits for
 
 1383
 00:44:56,340 --> 00:44:58,140
 microphysiological systems,
 
 1384
 00:44:58,420 --> 00:45:00,340
 the many workshops and papers
 
 1385
 00:45:00,340 --> 00:45:01,580
 are highlighting
 
 1386
 00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:03,940
 technological advances that
 
 1387
 00:45:03,940 --> 00:45:06,220
 at some point you you feel
 
 1388
 00:45:06,220 --> 00:45:08,020
 yesterday if you still do the
 
 1389
 00:45:08,020 --> 00:45:09,460
 animal experiment which was
 
 1390
 00:45:09,460 --> 00:45:11,220
 first described in 1956.
 
 1391
 00:45:12,670 --> 00:45:13,830
 Yes, David, do you have
 
 1392
 00:45:13,830 --> 00:45:16,660
 anything to add?I, I, I think
 
 1393
 00:45:16,660 --> 00:45:19,180
 this is just a really,
 
 1394
 00:45:20,060 --> 00:45:20,980
 I'm really loving this
 
 1395
 00:45:20,980 --> 00:45:22,380
 discussion. And I'm thinking
 
 1396
 00:45:22,380 --> 00:45:25,100
 that I think that the
 
 1397
 00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:27,340
 shift towards alternatives to
 
 1398
 00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:29,460
 animals is also a part of a
 
 1399
 00:45:29,460 --> 00:45:31,580
 larger part of society and
 
 1400
 00:45:31,580 --> 00:45:33,180
 where we are in the world.
 
 1401
 00:45:33,740 --> 00:45:35,380
 Because you have the one
 
 1402
 00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:37,860
 thing about making sense when
 
 1403
 00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:39,300
 it comes to animal models,
 
 1404
 00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:40,780
 but you also see the global
 
 1405
 00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:42,620
 challenges that we have when
 
 1406
 00:45:42,620 --> 00:45:44,870
 it comes to health. Pollution
 
 1407
 00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:46,980
 and so forth. And how these
 
 1408
 00:45:46,980 --> 00:45:49,380
 models can be applied to
 
 1409
 00:45:49,380 --> 00:45:51,020
 addressing these, for
 
 1410
 00:45:51,020 --> 00:45:52,860
 example, the chemicals that
 
 1411
 00:45:52,860 --> 00:45:54,860
 are floating around in our
 
 1412
 00:45:54,860 --> 00:45:56,980
 oceans and our in our blood
 
 1413
 00:45:56,980 --> 00:45:58,420
 and stuff like that. What is
 
 1414
 00:45:58,420 --> 00:46:00,660
 the effect of these on our
 
 1415
 00:46:00,660 --> 00:46:03,260
 systems? That's that's you
 
 1416
 00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:04,860
 can you can couple
 
 1417
 00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:06,580
 developmental biology to
 
 1418
 00:46:06,580 --> 00:46:08,100
 environmental chemistry and
 
 1419
 00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:10,780
 and so forth in these and.
 
 1420
 00:46:11,550 --> 00:46:12,590
 Other aspects that you can
 
 1421
 00:46:12,590 --> 00:46:14,470
 sort of piggyback on in novel
 
 1422
 00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:17,020
 sciences is. OK,
 
 1423
 00:46:17,180 --> 00:46:18,340
 you, if you're working with
 
 1424
 00:46:18,340 --> 00:46:20,180
 microphysiological systems,
 
 1425
 00:46:20,620 --> 00:46:21,820
 then you might also be able
 
 1426
 00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:22,660
 to go towards more
 
 1427
 00:46:22,660 --> 00:46:24,860
 automation, more m
 
 1428
 00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:25,740
 iniaturisation in systems.
 
 1429
 00:46:25,980 --> 00:46:27,860
 Life science industry today
 
 1430
 00:46:27,860 --> 00:46:30,300
 has around 5 million
 
 1431
 00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:32,020
 tonnes per plastic
 
 1432
 00:46:32,020 --> 00:46:33,340
 consumables that are being
 
 1433
 00:46:33,340 --> 00:46:35,380
 wasted. You know, is this
 
 1434
 00:46:35,380 --> 00:46:36,540
 something that we can also
 
 1435
 00:46:36,540 --> 00:46:39,380
 piggyback in smaller, more
 
 1436
 00:46:39,380 --> 00:46:41,140
 sensible systems? I mean,
 
 1437
 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:42,900
 there's a lot of things that
 
 1438
 00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:44,260
 the future needs that you can
 
 1439
 00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:45,580
 couple onto each other with
 
 1440
 00:46:45,580 --> 00:46:46,860
 this. I think this will be an
 
 1441
 00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:48,020
 important, important
 
 1442
 00:46:48,020 --> 00:46:49,020
 ingredient because we really
 
 1443
 00:46:49,020 --> 00:46:50,460
 don't have any choice. You
 
 1444
 00:46:50,460 --> 00:46:51,940
 know, we can't go on like
 
 1445
 00:46:51,940 --> 00:46:53,340
 we've been doing. And this is
 
 1446
 00:46:53,340 --> 00:46:54,460
 an important part of that.
 
 1447
 00:46:55,540 --> 00:46:56,940
 You are so right, Tim. I
 
 1448
 00:46:56,940 --> 00:46:59,830
 mean. There's a study
 
 1449
 00:46:59,830 --> 00:47:01,390
 from 2019 which shows that
 
 1450
 00:47:01,390 --> 00:47:04,190
  350,000 chemicals have
 
 1451
 00:47:04,190 --> 00:47:06,310
 been registered in the 19
 
 1452
 00:47:06,310 --> 00:47:07,350
 most developed countries
 
 1453
 00:47:07,350 --> 00:47:10,270
 . 350,000 Let's take
 
 1454
 00:47:10,270 --> 00:47:11,550
 the example of cancer.
 
 1455
 00:47:13,350 --> 00:47:14,550
 Because people are fear of
 
 1456
 00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:15,270
 chemicals for cancer.
 
 1457
 00:47:16,540 --> 00:47:19,260
  havecancer studies
 
 1458
 00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:21,740
 and This is why is this
 
 1459
 00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:24,340
 Because a cancer study first
 
 1460
 00:47:24,340 --> 00:47:25,900
 of all takes about five years
 
 1461
 00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:28,260
 to complete. So
 
 1462
 00:47:28,780 --> 00:47:30,420
 two years is the study time
 
 1463
 00:47:31,020 --> 00:47:31,780
 doing all of the
 
 1464
 00:47:31,780 --> 00:47:33,140
 histopathology of all of the
 
 1465
 00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:36,100
 organs. It is four to five
 
 1466
 00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:38,140
 years. Yeah, it costs a
 
 1467
 00:47:38,140 --> 00:47:39,220
 million per substance,
 
 1468
 00:47:39,220 --> 00:47:40,060
 so 350,000 * 1,000,000
 
 1469
 00:47:40,020 --> 00:47:43,020
  nobody
 
 1470
 00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:45,780
 will pay for this. And it
 
 1471
 00:47:45,780 --> 00:47:48,020
 takes about 10 kilogramme of
 
 1472
 00:47:48,060 --> 00:47:50,580
 the chemical to feed 400 rats
 
 1473
 00:47:50,580 --> 00:47:52,660
 every day of their life with
 
 1474
 00:47:52,660 --> 00:47:54,420
 these chemicals. Telechemists
 
 1475
 00:47:54,420 --> 00:47:56,420
 to produce A10 kilogramme of
 
 1476
 00:47:56,420 --> 00:47:57,580
 a chemical. Are you a
 
 1477
 00:47:57,580 --> 00:47:59,820
 chemist? Yeah, we did, which
 
 1478
 00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:01,580
 is not yet in commercial
 
 1479
 00:48:01,580 --> 00:48:03,660
 production. Yeah, can do
 
 1480
 00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:06,060
 this. So this is this is the
 
 1481
 00:48:06,060 --> 00:48:07,380
 craziest thing where the
 
 1482
 00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:08,580
 animal is not the answer to
 
 1483
 00:48:08,580 --> 00:48:09,660
 the to some of these
 
 1484
 00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:11,100
 problems. And throughput is a
 
 1485
 00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:13,910
 big one. Brilliant. Well,
 
 1486
 00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:15,030
 look, we're going to move on
 
 1487
 00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:15,830
 to the next question, but
 
 1488
 00:48:15,830 --> 00:48:17,550
 before that, for viewers or
 
 1489
 00:48:17,550 --> 00:48:19,190
 listeners who don't know what
 
 1490
 00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:21,540
  3. Oh,
 
 1491
 00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:23,340
 Mary, can you just quickly
 
 1492
 00:48:23,340 --> 00:48:24,260
 just explain them? So I might
 
 1493
 00:48:24,260 --> 00:48:25,380
 be watching this listening is
 
 1494
 00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:26,060
 going. That's really
 
 1495
 00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:27,020
 interesting. But I don't know
 
 1496
 00:48:27,020 --> 00:48:28,140
 what 3 hours are. So would
 
 1497
 00:48:28,140 --> 00:48:28,980
 you mind just quickly
 
 1498
 00:48:28,980 --> 00:48:30,260
 explaining what that is? So,
 
 1499
 00:48:30,260 --> 00:48:31,980
 so the three are so the three
 
 1500
 00:48:31,980 --> 00:48:33,460
 hours are the principle for
 
 1501
 00:48:33,460 --> 00:48:36,420
 which we are supposed to use
 
 1502
 00:48:36,460 --> 00:48:38,820
 animals. So refinement,
 
 1503
 00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:41,540
 reduction and forgot the
 
 1504
 00:48:41,540 --> 00:48:43,220
 third one, refinement,
 
 1505
 00:48:43,220 --> 00:48:45,260
 reduction and replacement and
 
 1506
 00:48:45,260 --> 00:48:46,260
 replacement.
 
 1507
 00:48:48,430 --> 00:48:49,830
 Most important, The most
 
 1508
 00:48:50,310 --> 00:48:51,470
 important one, the the the
 
 1509
 00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:53,910
 idea. The idea is to whenever
 
 1510
 00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:55,710
 we write an animal licence,
 
 1511
 00:48:55,710 --> 00:48:57,700
 whenever we create. An
 
 1512
 00:48:57,700 --> 00:48:59,500
 experiment, we should have
 
 1513
 00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:02,460
 these in mind. So and to ask
 
 1514
 00:49:02,460 --> 00:49:03,540
 really the questions that
 
 1515
 00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:04,700
 also, you know, Thomas was
 
 1516
 00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:06,540
 actually bringing up, say, do
 
 1517
 00:49:06,540 --> 00:49:07,980
 we really need to do this
 
 1518
 00:49:07,980 --> 00:49:10,260
 experiment in the mouse? Do
 
 1519
 00:49:10,260 --> 00:49:12,900
 can we reduce the amount of
 
 1520
 00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:14,540
 animals? Can we use another
 
 1521
 00:49:14,540 --> 00:49:16,420
 system? Can we maybe use
 
 1522
 00:49:16,420 --> 00:49:18,260
 another system first and then
 
 1523
 00:49:18,260 --> 00:49:19,380
 testing the mouse in a
 
 1524
 00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:21,740
 smaller group. So it's that
 
 1525
 00:49:21,740 --> 00:49:23,300
 that's what this is about.
 
 1526
 00:49:25,110 --> 00:49:27,430
 And I must say that it's,
 
 1527
 00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:30,030
 it's the it's, it's a world.
 
 1528
 00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:32,180
 Wide movement, I mean it's
 
 1529
 00:49:32,180 --> 00:49:33,820
 not only limited, I think to
 
 1530
 00:49:33,820 --> 00:49:35,740
 the US to Europe or to
 
 1531
 00:49:35,740 --> 00:49:37,060
 Switzerland. It it it is
 
 1532
 00:49:37,060 --> 00:49:39,900
 really every every entity
 
 1533
 00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:41,700
 has every country has its own
 
 1534
 00:49:41,700 --> 00:49:44,220
 version of the of the three R
 
 1535
 00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:47,180
 system. So it's thank you for
 
 1536
 00:49:47,180 --> 00:49:49,300
 that was actually coined as a
 
 1537
 00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:51,620
 principal in 1959, so 65
 
 1538
 00:49:51,620 --> 00:49:53,100
 years ago by Russell and
 
 1539
 00:49:53,100 --> 00:49:56,020
 Birch out of the UK. And
 
 1540
 00:49:56,020 --> 00:49:57,380
 but it as you rightly say, it
 
 1541
 00:49:57,380 --> 00:49:58,500
 has been adopted by
 
 1542
 00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:00,460
 essentially all scientific.
 
 1543
 00:50:00,620 --> 00:50:02,580
 Worldwide as a societal
 
 1544
 00:50:02,580 --> 00:50:03,900
 compromise, you're saying
 
 1545
 00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:05,420
 while we continue using
 
 1546
 00:50:05,420 --> 00:50:07,380
 animals, we acknowledge the
 
 1547
 00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:08,340
 three R principle that
 
 1548
 00:50:08,340 --> 00:50:10,340
 whenever we can we get rid of
 
 1549
 00:50:10,340 --> 00:50:12,420
 it or or minimise suffering
 
 1550
 00:50:12,420 --> 00:50:13,740
 or numbers of animals. Thank
 
 1551
 00:50:13,740 --> 00:50:16,700
 you for sharing that both
 
 1552
 00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:18,780
 you Marin and Thomas. Now
 
 1553
 00:50:18,780 --> 00:50:19,740
 let's move on to the subject
 
 1554
 00:50:19,740 --> 00:50:20,780
 which is close to Thomas's
 
 1555
 00:50:20,780 --> 00:50:21,740
 heart and that's why we're
 
 1556
 00:50:21,740 --> 00:50:22,620
 asking the question which
 
 1557
 00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:23,460
 you're here Thomas so you
 
 1558
 00:50:23,460 --> 00:50:24,580
 wonder why you're getting all
 
 1559
 00:50:24,580 --> 00:50:25,540
 the questions is because you
 
 1560
 00:50:25,540 --> 00:50:26,580
 are the guests. So therefore.
 
 1561
 00:50:27,550 --> 00:50:28,510
 Throw these questions at you.
 
 1562
 00:50:28,510 --> 00:50:29,390
 So now we're going to talk
 
 1563
 00:50:29,390 --> 00:50:30,750
 about the ethics of AI and
 
 1564
 00:50:30,750 --> 00:50:32,030
 potential consciousness of
 
 1565
 00:50:32,030 --> 00:50:33,510
 neural organised chips and
 
 1566
 00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:35,430
 organoid intelligence. And
 
 1567
 00:50:35,590 --> 00:50:36,710
 for views and listeners who
 
 1568
 00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:38,350
 don't know, you did an OI
 
 1569
 00:50:38,350 --> 00:50:39,590
 publication, Frontiers, which
 
 1570
 00:50:39,590 --> 00:50:40,670
 had, as I've been told by
 
 1571
 00:50:40,670 --> 00:50:43,150
 Miles, 171,000 views.
 
 1572
 00:50:43,980 --> 00:50:46,540
 25,000 Danleys just on the
 
 1573
 00:50:46,540 --> 00:50:49,340
 publishers website. So first
 
 1574
 00:50:49,340 --> 00:50:50,260
 question for you related to
 
 1575
 00:50:50,260 --> 00:50:52,660
 this is what exactly is
 
 1576
 00:50:52,660 --> 00:50:54,340
 organoid intelligence? When
 
 1577
 00:50:54,340 --> 00:50:56,220
 you say that, what do youactually mean?
 
 1578
 00:50:58,420 --> 00:51:00,820
 Very simple. It is a brain
 
 1579
 00:51:00,820 --> 00:51:02,740
 organic coupled through
 
 1580
 00:51:02,740 --> 00:51:04,300
 microelectrode areas to AI.
 
 1581
 00:51:05,340 --> 00:51:06,700
 So some people are using AI
 
 1582
 00:51:06,740 --> 00:51:08,420
 nowadays to try to talk to
 
 1583
 00:51:08,420 --> 00:51:10,020
 animals, they're trying to
 
 1584
 00:51:10,020 --> 00:51:11,220
 talk to brain organoid. So
 
 1585
 00:51:11,220 --> 00:51:13,780
 the idea is that we can
 
 1586
 00:51:13,780 --> 00:51:15,020
 measure what it.
 
 1587
 00:51:16,380 --> 00:51:18,260
 Tries to communicate that we
 
 1588
 00:51:18,260 --> 00:51:20,820
 can use these to have it
 
 1589
 00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:23,500
 act for example on a virtual
 
 1590
 00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:24,940
 environment like a simple
 
 1591
 00:51:24,940 --> 00:51:26,660
 video game and then we
 
 1592
 00:51:26,660 --> 00:51:28,220
 feedback to the organomet
 
 1593
 00:51:28,220 --> 00:51:29,860
 it's it's action what what
 
 1594
 00:51:29,860 --> 00:51:31,260
 the result of this action was
 
 1595
 00:51:31,260 --> 00:51:33,780
 and by doing so trying to
 
 1596
 00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:36,780
  optimise their strategy
 
 1597
 00:51:36,780 --> 00:51:38,900
 in in in in these type of
 
 1598
 00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:40,780
 games does not need to be
 
 1599
 00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:42,260
 necessarily virtual. We also
 
 1600
 00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:43,420
 do experiments with little
 
 1601
 00:51:43,420 --> 00:51:44,980
 robots where the brain
 
 1602
 00:51:44,980 --> 00:51:46,700
 organic is in the. So
 
 1603
 00:51:47,660 --> 00:51:50,340
 and so Bluetooth.
 
 1604
 00:51:50,340 --> 00:51:52,820
 We have a little robot which
 
 1605
 00:51:52,820 --> 00:51:54,260
 is trying to explore the
 
 1606
 00:51:54,260 --> 00:51:55,900
 landscape and avoiding
 
 1607
 00:51:56,220 --> 00:51:59,180
 objects. These are the type
 
 1608
 00:51:59,180 --> 00:52:00,780
 of experiments which have
 
 1609
 00:52:00,780 --> 00:52:02,500
 started. I'm not saying we
 
 1610
 00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:03,980
 can already drive a car.
 
 1611
 00:52:07,230 --> 00:52:08,910
 This is, this is very
 
 1612
 00:52:08,910 --> 00:52:10,110
 potentially kind of mind
 
 1613
 00:52:10,110 --> 00:52:11,430
 blowing stuff. I was talking
 
 1614
 00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:12,830
 to my son about this
 
 1615
 00:52:12,830 --> 00:52:14,710
 yesterday too. And and it's
 
 1616
 00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:16,870
 like the question is can can
 
 1617
 00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:18,940
 you, can you actually grow?A
 
 1618
 00:52:18,940 --> 00:52:21,100
 miniature brain and make it
 
 1619
 00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,740
 play a simple video game is
 
 1620
 00:52:23,740 --> 00:52:25,620
 that like I mean is that is
 
 1621
 00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:27,260
 it is that now would you
 
 1622
 00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:28,620
 would you say that that is
 
 1623
 00:52:29,820 --> 00:52:30,940
 that you can actually that's
 
 1624
 00:52:30,940 --> 00:52:32,140
 that's what we're doing and I
 
 1625
 00:52:32,140 --> 00:52:33,140
 don't know what the age of
 
 1626
 00:52:33,140 --> 00:52:35,060
 your son is we also wrote a
 
 1627
 00:52:35,060 --> 00:52:36,860
 version for 12 year olds with
 
 1628
 00:52:36,860 --> 00:52:38,540
 frontiers about about this
 
 1629
 00:52:39,020 --> 00:52:40,580
 that is awesome Maybe that
 
 1630
 00:52:40,580 --> 00:52:41,860
 would be an awesome link to
 
 1631
 00:52:41,860 --> 00:52:43,980
 to share on this because.
 
 1632
 00:52:44,030 --> 00:52:46,030
 We can share that link here
 
 1633
 00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:48,110
 with the podcast. So Mary,
 
 1634
 00:52:48,110 --> 00:52:48,990
 I've got a question for you.
 
 1635
 00:52:48,990 --> 00:52:50,390
 Going back one step though,
 
 1636
 00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:53,700
 what really is a brain?Gee,
 
 1637
 00:52:53,780 --> 00:52:55,500
 I don't know. A lot of people
 
 1638
 00:52:55,500 --> 00:52:58,470
 don't have one. My
 
 1639
 00:52:58,510 --> 00:52:59,910
 wife would say agree with you
 
 1640
 00:52:59,910 --> 00:53:01,110
 on that point actually about
 
 1641
 00:53:01,110 --> 00:53:01,910
 me, but there you go.
 
 1642
 00:53:04,070 --> 00:53:05,350
 What what is this is more
 
 1643
 00:53:05,350 --> 00:53:06,310
 like a philosophical
 
 1644
 00:53:06,310 --> 00:53:07,310
 question, I would say. I
 
 1645
 00:53:07,310 --> 00:53:09,710
 mean, what is AI would say
 
 1646
 00:53:09,710 --> 00:53:12,430
 it's an interconnection
 
 1647
 00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:14,470
 of a lot of things that are
 
 1648
 00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:15,870
 conscious and unconscious.
 
 1649
 00:53:15,870 --> 00:53:18,190
 That is, I think what the
 
 1650
 00:53:18,190 --> 00:53:20,990
 brain might be, I'm not
 
 1651
 00:53:20,990 --> 00:53:23,860
 sure I. I'm I'm
 
 1652
 00:53:23,860 --> 00:53:25,660
 not sure I can define what a
 
 1653
 00:53:25,660 --> 00:53:27,780
 brain in a dish is. So I
 
 1654
 00:53:27,780 --> 00:53:29,500
 think you know, there I think
 
 1655
 00:53:29,500 --> 00:53:32,350
 it's. It's a bit like the
 
 1656
 00:53:32,350 --> 00:53:34,910
 concept of the
 
 1657
 00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:36,710
 heterogeneity of the tumour,
 
 1658
 00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:39,230
 you know, meaning you take
 
 1659
 00:53:39,230 --> 00:53:41,070
 apart and you mimic it in the
 
 1660
 00:53:41,070 --> 00:53:42,750
 in the in the dish or you
 
 1661
 00:53:42,750 --> 00:53:44,590
 take. So I think.
 
 1662
 00:53:46,310 --> 00:53:48,150
 The idea of being able to.
 
 1663
 00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:50,910
 Have so many different
 
 1664
 00:53:50,910 --> 00:53:53,060
 components in it. To create
 
 1665
 00:53:53,060 --> 00:53:55,420
 something that is similar to
 
 1666
 00:53:55,460 --> 00:53:57,060
 a brain would be something.
 
 1667
 00:53:58,910 --> 00:54:00,230
 Absolutely fascinating, I I
 
 1668
 00:54:00,230 --> 00:54:02,670
 would say, and certainly.
 
 1669
 00:54:04,910 --> 00:54:06,870
 Difficult to define. I think
 
 1670
 00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:09,070
 that that I I don't know what
 
 1671
 00:54:09,070 --> 00:54:11,230
 your thoughts are, Thomas on.
 
 1672
 00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:12,830
 Well, I'm Steve. Yeah. I'd
 
 1673
 00:54:12,830 --> 00:54:13,870
 like to know what your views
 
 1674
 00:54:13,870 --> 00:54:15,390
 are on that. So yeah, yeah,
 
 1675
 00:54:15,590 --> 00:54:17,070
 both of you, of course. Yeah,
 
 1676
 00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:18,830
 I'm dying here. Thomas's
 
 1677
 00:54:18,830 --> 00:54:20,020
 thoughts on this so. So.
 
 1678
 00:54:22,630 --> 00:54:23,870
 I mean a big problem in this
 
 1679
 00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:25,270
 field is that we are using
 
 1680
 00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:27,390
 terms which have meaning in
 
 1681
 00:54:27,830 --> 00:54:30,350
 everyday life, intelligence
 
 1682
 00:54:30,430 --> 00:54:32,190
 or self-awareness.
 
 1683
 00:54:32,310 --> 00:54:33,470
 Consciousness, all of this
 
 1684
 00:54:33,830 --> 00:54:35,830
 which are far too big and not
 
 1685
 00:54:35,830 --> 00:54:37,910
 specified. So one of the the
 
 1686
 00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:40,150
 papers we wrote actually
 
 1687
 00:54:40,790 --> 00:54:43,630
 is about calling for defining
 
 1688
 00:54:43,630 --> 00:54:45,190
 these terms for the for our
 
 1689
 00:54:45,190 --> 00:54:47,830
 purpose, what is the minimum
 
 1690
 00:54:47,830 --> 00:54:50,470
 to call a system intelligence?
 
 1691
 00:54:50,820 --> 00:54:52,500
 We are even discussing at the
 
 1692
 00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:54,340
 moment experimental ethics
 
 1693
 00:54:54,580 --> 00:54:56,700
 that you can start saying how
 
 1694
 00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:58,380
 complex does a system have to
 
 1695
 00:54:58,380 --> 00:55:00,060
 be in order to be called
 
 1696
 00:55:00,060 --> 00:55:02,740
 intelligent? So we are, we
 
 1697
 00:55:02,740 --> 00:55:03,700
 are, we are working with
 
 1698
 00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:05,060
 ethicists in our work. Very,
 
 1699
 00:55:05,060 --> 00:55:07,660
 very much so here. Mr Behman
 
 1700
 00:55:07,860 --> 00:55:09,220
 Institute for Bioethics,
 
 1701
 00:55:10,180 --> 00:55:11,500
 They're sitting around the
 
 1702
 00:55:11,500 --> 00:55:12,580
 table every week when we
 
 1703
 00:55:12,580 --> 00:55:14,420
 discuss our experiments and
 
 1704
 00:55:14,780 --> 00:55:17,060
 they come to the lab and it
 
 1705
 00:55:17,060 --> 00:55:18,380
 all gets very humble if they
 
 1706
 00:55:18,380 --> 00:55:19,540
 see these tiny little
 
 1707
 00:55:19,540 --> 00:55:22,260
 snowflakes. Of of
 
 1708
 00:55:22,260 --> 00:55:23,660
 brain, brain organisms, which
 
 1709
 00:55:23,660 --> 00:55:25,580
 at the moment, even if these
 
 1710
 00:55:25,580 --> 00:55:28,180
 are human neurons, they will
 
 1711
 00:55:28,180 --> 00:55:30,740
 not be become conscious or
 
 1712
 00:55:30,740 --> 00:55:33,420
 whatever they have. We have
 
 1713
 00:55:33,420 --> 00:55:34,780
 less neurons in the standard
 
 1714
 00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:36,220
 model than a than a house
 
 1715
 00:55:36,220 --> 00:55:38,180
 fly. Yeah. And and what we
 
 1716
 00:55:38,180 --> 00:55:39,860
 are feeding them is a very
 
 1717
 00:55:39,860 --> 00:55:41,500
 abstract signals of a video
 
 1718
 00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:43,500
 game as the only input they
 
 1719
 00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:44,860
 have, the only thing they can
 
 1720
 00:55:44,860 --> 00:55:46,630
 think about. So that they
 
 1721
 00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:47,910
 will get conscious, I think
 
 1722
 00:55:48,070 --> 00:55:50,510
 is is not very likely.
 
 1723
 00:55:51,260 --> 00:55:52,780
 But we are preparing, we are
 
 1724
 00:55:52,780 --> 00:55:54,220
 pre empting the discussion
 
 1725
 00:55:54,420 --> 00:55:56,060
 because we are also building
 
 1726
 00:55:56,060 --> 00:55:57,900
 at the moment already 5
 
 1727
 00:55:57,900 --> 00:55:59,860
 millimetre to one centimetre
 
 1728
 00:55:59,860 --> 00:56:01,820
 large brain organoids and one
 
 1729
 00:56:01,820 --> 00:56:03,700
 centimetres already 2 mouse
 
 1730
 00:56:03,700 --> 00:56:06,220
 brain. And if you start
 
 1731
 00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:07,900
 giving them access to more
 
 1732
 00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:09,420
 complex information, we don't
 
 1733
 00:56:09,420 --> 00:56:10,540
 know what is happening here.
 
 1734
 00:56:11,420 --> 00:56:12,460
 So This is why we want the
 
 1735
 00:56:12,460 --> 00:56:13,900
 discussion now, the ethical
 
 1736
 00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:15,260
 discussion as well. And we
 
 1737
 00:56:15,260 --> 00:56:16,380
 are putting out papers, we
 
 1738
 00:56:16,380 --> 00:56:19,140
 are serving laypeople, just
 
 1739
 00:56:19,140 --> 00:56:21,070
 asking them. This is what we
 
 1740
 00:56:21,070 --> 00:56:23,380
 are doing. When does it start
 
 1741
 00:56:23,380 --> 00:56:25,540
 to feel this should perhaps
 
 1742
 00:56:25,540 --> 00:56:28,390
 not be done?Base level
 
 1743
 00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:29,910
 yeah, then we tell them, but
 
 1744
 00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:31,030
 we do this in order to find
 
 1745
 00:56:31,030 --> 00:56:32,790
 new drugs for at summer. Is
 
 1746
 00:56:32,790 --> 00:56:34,470
 this changing your view? And
 
 1747
 00:56:34,470 --> 00:56:35,630
 so we're really trying to
 
 1748
 00:56:35,630 --> 00:56:38,150
 explore what what a general
 
 1749
 00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:39,670
 population would say because
 
 1750
 00:56:39,710 --> 00:56:41,710
 as scientists we have more
 
 1751
 00:56:41,710 --> 00:56:44,230
 and more to to live in
 
 1752
 00:56:44,230 --> 00:56:46,510
 society. We have to not only
 
 1753
 00:56:46,510 --> 00:56:47,590
 in the with the aspect of
 
 1754
 00:56:47,590 --> 00:56:49,110
 doing animal experiments. We
 
 1755
 00:56:49,110 --> 00:56:51,390
 are controlled by people and
 
 1756
 00:56:51,390 --> 00:56:53,110
 we are living from taxpayers
 
 1757
 00:56:53,110 --> 00:56:54,710
 money so we should better.
 
 1758
 00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:56,580
 Consider what they feel about
 
 1759
 00:56:56,580 --> 00:56:58,700
 our work. Yeah, well, that's
 
 1760
 00:56:58,700 --> 00:56:59,820
 interesting. Was. I mean,
 
 1761
 00:56:59,820 --> 00:57:00,780
 Steve, have you got anything
 
 1762
 00:57:00,780 --> 00:57:01,500
 to add to that before
 
 1763
 00:57:01,500 --> 00:57:03,620
 Arsenal? Yeah. You know, I I
 
 1764
 00:57:03,620 --> 00:57:05,980
 have to, you know, I have
 
 1765
 00:57:05,980 --> 00:57:08,510
 to ask. You know,
 
 1766
 00:57:08,510 --> 00:57:11,230
 Thomas, in the in about 1980,
 
 1767
 00:57:11,230 --> 00:57:12,230
 there was a movie with
 
 1768
 00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:13,830
 Harrison Ford called The
 
 1769
 00:57:13,830 --> 00:57:16,390
 Blade Runner. And
 
 1770
 00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:18,310
 you know, these were, it was
 
 1771
 00:57:18,310 --> 00:57:19,510
 in the future and they were,
 
 1772
 00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:21,870
 they had these humanoids who
 
 1773
 00:57:21,870 --> 00:57:23,750
 were working and then they
 
 1774
 00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:25,310
 turned against civilization.
 
 1775
 00:57:25,310 --> 00:57:26,750
 Of course, this is a it's a
 
 1776
 00:57:26,750 --> 00:57:28,190
 fun science fiction movie.
 
 1777
 00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:30,900
 But I mean, while we're on
 
 1778
 00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:33,380
 amazingly interesting topics
 
 1779
 00:57:33,380 --> 00:57:35,820
 and how far it can go, do
 
 1780
 00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:38,380
 you, do you think that we can
 
 1781
 00:57:38,380 --> 00:57:40,940
 one day in the future grow
 
 1782
 00:57:40,940 --> 00:57:43,380
 humanoids like full on
 
 1783
 00:57:43,380 --> 00:57:45,420
 humans that are, you know,
 
 1784
 00:57:45,420 --> 00:57:47,460
 grown humans? This is of
 
 1785
 00:57:47,460 --> 00:57:48,580
 course, a very unfair
 
 1786
 00:57:48,580 --> 00:57:49,980
 question because it's so far,
 
 1787
 00:57:49,980 --> 00:57:51,260
 but I would be very
 
 1788
 00:57:51,260 --> 00:57:52,540
 interested to hear what youthink.
 
 1789
 00:57:55,410 --> 00:57:57,570
 I mean, the, I think probably
 
 1790
 00:57:57,570 --> 00:58:00,450
 it's easier to, to in a very
 
 1791
 00:58:00,450 --> 00:58:02,410
 traditional way to grow a
 
 1792
 00:58:02,410 --> 00:58:04,210
 humanoids which are, let's
 
 1793
 00:58:04,210 --> 00:58:05,610
 say have reduced brain
 
 1794
 00:58:05,610 --> 00:58:07,770
 functions and can serve as
 
 1795
 00:58:08,210 --> 00:58:10,650
 slaves for us. Yeah, we don't
 
 1796
 00:58:10,650 --> 00:58:13,370
 need high tech for this. If
 
 1797
 00:58:13,370 --> 00:58:15,130
 we, if we wanted to do this,
 
 1798
 00:58:15,170 --> 00:58:17,730
 our work is really more about
 
 1799
 00:58:17,730 --> 00:58:19,410
 creating a brain and
 
 1800
 00:58:19,410 --> 00:58:21,610
 combining it with in silico
 
 1801
 00:58:21,610 --> 00:58:24,060
 type of of computers. And and
 
 1802
 00:58:24,540 --> 00:58:27,220
 and this goes really for me
 
 1803
 00:58:27,220 --> 00:58:29,580
 into drug development and and
 
 1804
 00:58:29,580 --> 00:58:30,980
 finding the things which are
 
 1805
 00:58:30,980 --> 00:58:32,820
 damaging to the brain with
 
 1806
 00:58:33,260 --> 00:58:35,540
 more sensitivity for many of
 
 1807
 00:58:35,540 --> 00:58:36,540
 the engineers we are working
 
 1808
 00:58:36,540 --> 00:58:37,340
 with this about bio
 
 1809
 00:58:37,340 --> 00:58:39,860
 computing. Yeah, because the
 
 1810
 00:58:39,860 --> 00:58:40,860
 brain is a fantastic
 
 1811
 00:58:40,860 --> 00:58:43,620
 computer. It was only in
 
 1812
 00:58:43,940 --> 00:58:46,500
  2022, two years ago, that
 
 1813
 00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:48,060
 the first supercomputer
 
 1814
 00:58:48,060 --> 00:58:49,980
 outperformed a single human
 
 1815
 00:58:49,980 --> 00:58:51,100
 brain and its computational
 
 1816
 00:58:51,100 --> 00:58:52,940
 capacity. And this was a.
 
 1817
 00:58:53,980 --> 00:58:56,940
 $600 million investment on
 
 1818
 00:58:56,940 --> 00:58:58,820
 on 680  squaremetre of
 
 1819
 00:58:58,820 --> 00:59:00,820
 installation. So you can
 
 1820
 00:59:00,820 --> 00:59:01,980
 think this is what we are
 
 1821
 00:59:01,980 --> 00:59:03,660
 carrying in one brain. Yeah
 
 1822
 00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:06,750
 and. If we
 
 1823
 00:59:06,750 --> 00:59:08,350
 understand how the brain
 
 1824
 00:59:08,350 --> 00:59:09,630
 becomes such an efficient
 
 1825
 00:59:09,630 --> 00:59:11,750
 computer, we might benefit
 
 1826
 00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:13,470
 from this and it is
 
 1827
 00:59:13,470 --> 00:59:14,910
 outperforming the computer
 
 1828
 00:59:14,910 --> 00:59:17,150
 still in a in a few tasks. So
 
 1829
 00:59:17,150 --> 00:59:18,350
 intuitive thinking,
 
 1830
 00:59:19,070 --> 00:59:21,430
 continuous learning, our
 
 1831
 00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:22,910
 computer programmes, if they
 
 1832
 00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:24,150
 want to learn something new,
 
 1833
 00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:25,430
 you have to rerun the model.
 
 1834
 00:59:25,860 --> 00:59:27,260
 And this is, this is, these
 
 1835
 00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:28,420
 are things which are really
 
 1836
 00:59:29,100 --> 00:59:30,300
 we want to learn and then we
 
 1837
 00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:31,500
 can perhaps build better
 
 1838
 00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:33,060
 computers just on our
 
 1839
 00:59:33,060 --> 00:59:34,980
 understanding of how the
 
 1840
 00:59:34,980 --> 00:59:35,940
 brain does the trick.
 
 1841
 00:59:37,830 --> 00:59:38,750
 Anybody else want anything
 
 1842
 00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:39,670
 before I move on to the next
 
 1843
 00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:41,030
 one? Because you're such a
 
 1844
 00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:42,030
 fascination. Everyone's got
 
 1845
 00:59:42,030 --> 00:59:43,310
 questions for you this week.
 
 1846
 00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:45,790
 Yeah. So I, I, I, I, I
 
 1847
 00:59:45,790 --> 00:59:47,790
 understand what you're
 
 1848
 00:59:47,790 --> 00:59:49,430
 saying. And I, I, I do agree
 
 1849
 00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:51,990
 with it, but I, I somehow I
 
 1850
 00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:54,910
 have more. So
 
 1851
 00:59:54,910 --> 00:59:56,910
 the study of the.
 
 1852
 00:59:58,180 --> 00:59:59,980
 The brain I find it
 
 1853
 00:59:59,980 --> 01:00:02,100
 applicable or just to
 
 1854
 01:00:03,740 --> 01:00:06,660
 diseases indeed likeAlzheimer and also
 
 1855
 01:00:06,980 --> 01:00:09,180
 improvement of computer
 
 1856
 01:00:09,180 --> 01:00:10,700
 supercomputers, whatever, but
 
 1857
 01:00:11,020 --> 01:00:13,940
 I find that the potential of
 
 1858
 01:00:13,940 --> 01:00:16,620
 the technology of
 
 1859
 01:00:16,820 --> 01:00:19,300
 the organ creating in a dish
 
 1860
 01:00:19,820 --> 01:00:22,140
 more towards something that
 
 1861
 01:00:22,140 --> 01:00:24,750
 ends up in. Towards the
 
 1862
 01:00:24,750 --> 01:00:26,630
 transplantation, kind of.
 
 1863
 01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:29,740
 Medicine, you know in which?
 
 1864
 01:00:31,550 --> 01:00:34,310
 We would be able to grow, for
 
 1865
 01:00:34,310 --> 01:00:36,830
 example, a bladder or a
 
 1866
 01:00:37,350 --> 01:00:39,230
 kidney or whatever. I mean, I
 
 1867
 01:00:39,230 --> 01:00:41,390
 wouldn't go replacing somebody
 
 1868
 01:00:41,390 --> 01:00:43,630
 's brain obviously does notseem to be.
 
 1869
 01:00:46,190 --> 01:00:47,910
 Feasible or not, at least
 
 1870
 01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:50,310
 now, but what I see more?
 
 1871
 01:00:52,110 --> 01:00:53,670
 The technology towards
 
 1872
 01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:55,910
 something applicable in this
 
 1873
 01:00:55,910 --> 01:00:57,350
 in this kind of respect. So
 
 1874
 01:00:57,350 --> 01:00:58,750
 like for example, if a person
 
 1875
 01:00:58,750 --> 01:01:01,420
 is on dialysis. Right.
 
 1876
 01:01:01,700 --> 01:01:03,540
 But we could replace the
 
 1877
 01:01:03,540 --> 01:01:05,500
 kidney or we could, we would
 
 1878
 01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:07,940
 be able to step forward in,
 
 1879
 01:01:07,940 --> 01:01:10,180
 in, in that kind of of
 
 1880
 01:01:10,180 --> 01:01:12,620
 medicine. And the the, the
 
 1881
 01:01:12,620 --> 01:01:14,220
 study I see on the brain, I
 
 1882
 01:01:14,220 --> 01:01:16,180
 see it, I, I see it as an
 
 1883
 01:01:16,180 --> 01:01:17,620
 extremely fascinating but
 
 1884
 01:01:17,660 --> 01:01:20,500
 applicable more to computer
 
 1885
 01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:21,900
 driven kind of
 
 1886
 01:01:22,500 --> 01:01:24,380
 applications in that, in that
 
 1887
 01:01:24,380 --> 01:01:25,950
 respect. So.
 
 1888
 01:01:27,910 --> 01:01:28,830
 I would not be sure about the
 
 1889
 01:01:28,830 --> 01:01:31,750
 future. This is because I
 
 1890
 01:01:31,750 --> 01:01:33,190
 mean imagine the following.
 
 1891
 01:01:33,510 --> 01:01:35,620
 You have a stroke. Areas of
 
 1892
 01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:37,060
 your brain are gone.
 
 1893
 01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:39,950
 I take some of your skin
 
 1894
 01:01:39,950 --> 01:01:41,990
 cells or blood cells produce
 
 1895
 01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:44,310
 from your own cells, neurons,
 
 1896
 01:01:44,590 --> 01:01:45,790
 brain material.
 
 1897
 01:01:47,830 --> 01:01:49,390
 People in Stanford and Pascal
 
 1898
 01:01:49,390 --> 01:01:50,390
 's group have already shown
 
 1899
 01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:51,910
 that these organoids can be
 
 1900
 01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:54,910
 implanted into into rodents
 
 1901
 01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:57,310
 and integrate functionally.
 
 1902
 01:01:58,110 --> 01:01:59,390
 And then with the plasticity
 
 1903
 01:01:59,390 --> 01:02:01,430
 of the brain, you could get
 
 1904
 01:02:01,430 --> 01:02:04,070
 biomass of brain. No, but but
 
 1905
 01:02:04,070 --> 01:02:05,630
 that, but that that that I
 
 1906
 01:02:05,630 --> 01:02:07,910
 think is is, is different.
 
 1907
 01:02:08,220 --> 01:02:10,380
 Then creating a brain in a
 
 1908
 01:02:10,380 --> 01:02:13,260
 dish. So what I what I need.
 
 1909
 01:02:16,190 --> 01:02:17,350
 So what I what I mean what I
 
 1910
 01:02:17,350 --> 01:02:19,270
 mean is that what you are
 
 1911
 01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:21,590
 describing is what I think
 
 1912
 01:02:21,590 --> 01:02:23,470
 it's. I would define as.
 
 1913
 01:02:25,310 --> 01:02:26,790
 Healing within the body,
 
 1914
 01:02:26,790 --> 01:02:29,350
 right. So you add like like
 
 1915
 01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:31,710
 also in the example of like a
 
 1916
 01:02:31,710 --> 01:02:33,430
 person that has a myocardial
 
 1917
 01:02:33,430 --> 01:02:35,590
 infarct for example, the the
 
 1918
 01:02:35,590 --> 01:02:38,140
 the the tissue is dead. And
 
 1919
 01:02:38,140 --> 01:02:39,180
 part of the heart doesn't
 
 1920
 01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:41,020
 beat anymore. So it it
 
 1921
 01:02:41,020 --> 01:02:42,980
 creates an aquatic area and
 
 1922
 01:02:42,980 --> 01:02:44,940
 maybe maybe one day we would
 
 1923
 01:02:44,940 --> 01:02:46,540
 be able to inject, for
 
 1924
 01:02:46,540 --> 01:02:48,580
 example, or to implant those
 
 1925
 01:02:48,580 --> 01:02:51,100
 organoids there that can have
 
 1926
 01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:52,980
 the heart remodel and re heal
 
 1927
 01:02:52,980 --> 01:02:54,460
 within just in the same way
 
 1928
 01:02:54,460 --> 01:02:56,660
 that you're describing the
 
 1929
 01:02:56,660 --> 01:02:59,060
 brain. I find that that
 
 1930
 01:02:59,460 --> 01:03:01,060
 extremely fascinating and
 
 1931
 01:03:01,060 --> 01:03:02,620
 indeed a direction that I
 
 1932
 01:03:02,620 --> 01:03:04,630
 think. We will
 
 1933
 01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:06,790
 pursue and we are and a lot
 
 1934
 01:03:06,790 --> 01:03:08,030
 of people are pursuing
 
 1935
 01:03:08,030 --> 01:03:10,260
 actually. What I'm saying is
 
 1936
 01:03:10,260 --> 01:03:12,540
 that I think that the
 
 1937
 01:03:12,540 --> 01:03:14,340
 complexity of creating a
 
 1938
 01:03:14,340 --> 01:03:16,180
 brain, an organ like the
 
 1939
 01:03:16,180 --> 01:03:17,820
 brain in a dish,
 
 1940
 01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:21,820
 in in its total. That I thinkis.
 
 1941
 01:03:24,190 --> 01:03:25,950
 More complex I would say in
 
 1942
 01:03:25,990 --> 01:03:27,350
 in in a way and.
 
 1943
 01:03:29,830 --> 01:03:32,670
 Definitely a bit further
 
 1944
 01:03:32,670 --> 01:03:34,950
 out in in in achievement. I
 
 1945
 01:03:34,950 --> 01:03:37,110
 think not That's that's
 
 1946
 01:03:37,110 --> 01:03:39,670
 that's what I I mean I didn't
 
 1947
 01:03:39,790 --> 01:03:42,660
 I I. Normandy,
 
 1948
 01:03:42,660 --> 01:03:43,860
 if if you are in the
 
 1949
 01:03:43,860 --> 01:03:45,580
 visionary field, I mean
 
 1950
 01:03:46,300 --> 01:03:48,140
 regenerative medicine is, is
 
 1951
 01:03:48,140 --> 01:03:50,380
 certainly an enormous future.
 
 1952
 01:03:50,380 --> 01:03:51,620
 Yeah. And stem cell
 
 1953
 01:03:51,620 --> 01:03:52,860
 technology is open up for
 
 1954
 01:03:52,860 --> 01:03:55,220
 this. At this moment.
 
 1955
 01:03:55,420 --> 01:03:57,100
 We typically produce some
 
 1956
 01:03:57,100 --> 01:03:59,100
 baby cells, so not completely
 
 1957
 01:03:59,140 --> 01:04:00,940
 differentiated cells and we
 
 1958
 01:04:00,940 --> 01:04:02,380
 hope they find their target
 
 1959
 01:04:02,380 --> 01:04:03,540
 or stick where we inject
 
 1960
 01:04:03,540 --> 01:04:06,460
 them. But if we have more
 
 1961
 01:04:06,460 --> 01:04:07,780
 already differentiated
 
 1962
 01:04:07,780 --> 01:04:09,460
 structures here, they might
 
 1963
 01:04:09,460 --> 01:04:11,180
 be more directed. Might be
 
 1964
 01:04:11,180 --> 01:04:13,100
 pictures which don't swim
 
 1965
 01:04:13,100 --> 01:04:15,500
 away so you could you could
 
 1966
 01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:17,380
 imagine that this is really a
 
 1967
 01:04:17,380 --> 01:04:19,380
 path forward. But I agree
 
 1968
 01:04:19,380 --> 01:04:20,780
 it's it is far and it's not
 
 1969
 01:04:20,780 --> 01:04:21,740
 my area of work.
 
 1970
 01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:25,470
 All right, well, I've got to
 
 1971
 01:04:25,470 --> 01:04:26,310
 go, but you know, I
 
 1972
 01:04:26,310 --> 01:04:27,910
 appreciate time is moving on.
 
 1973
 01:04:27,910 --> 01:04:28,870
 We've been talking for quite
 
 1974
 01:04:28,870 --> 01:04:29,830
 a long time already and I
 
 1975
 01:04:29,830 --> 01:04:31,270
 have still got some other one
 
 1976
 01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:32,270
 other set of questions today.
 
 1977
 01:04:32,270 --> 01:04:33,030
 So before we do that, I'm
 
 1978
 01:04:33,030 --> 01:04:34,270
 going to jump on my last
 
 1979
 01:04:34,270 --> 01:04:35,870
 question this area, which is
 
 1980
 01:04:35,870 --> 01:04:37,190
 can we use brain organoids
 
 1981
 01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:39,310
 today for testing drugs or
 
 1982
 01:04:39,310 --> 01:04:42,140
 other stimuli?So is that
 
 1983
 01:04:42,140 --> 01:04:44,660
 still, I mean this is, this
 
 1984
 01:04:44,660 --> 01:04:45,660
 is the bread and butter
 
 1985
 01:04:45,660 --> 01:04:48,550
 business we are doing?We
 
 1986
 01:04:48,550 --> 01:04:51,390
 are using them. We can
 
 1987
 01:04:51,390 --> 01:04:53,870
 show that toxicants, which
 
 1988
 01:04:53,870 --> 01:04:55,910
 are known to hinder brain
 
 1989
 01:04:55,910 --> 01:04:57,350
 development, are effective
 
 1990
 01:04:57,350 --> 01:04:58,910
 here. We even do gene
 
 1991
 01:04:58,910 --> 01:05:00,750
 environment interactions. So
 
 1992
 01:05:01,150 --> 01:05:02,750
 by introducing risk genes for
 
 1993
 01:05:02,750 --> 01:05:05,190
 autism and showing them that
 
 1994
 01:05:05,190 --> 01:05:06,750
 they get more sensitive for
 
 1995
 01:05:06,750 --> 01:05:08,030
 certain pesticides.
 
 1996
 01:05:09,870 --> 01:05:11,070
 Even on this basis, have
 
 1997
 01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:12,990
 become part of a.
 
 1998
 01:05:13,380 --> 01:05:15,620
 75,000 children study in an
 
 1999
 01:05:15,620 --> 01:05:17,060
 autism excellence centre
 
 2000
 01:05:17,260 --> 01:05:19,340
 where we where they try to
 
 2001
 01:05:19,340 --> 01:05:20,580
 find these gene environment
 
 2002
 01:05:20,580 --> 01:05:21,740
 interactions and we are
 
 2003
 01:05:21,740 --> 01:05:23,100
 trying to model them in the
 
 2004
 01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:25,740
 brain organisation and  once
 
 2005
 01:05:25,740 --> 01:05:26,820
 you have the disease model
 
 2006
 01:05:26,820 --> 01:05:27,980
 you can look into is there
 
 2007
 01:05:27,980 --> 01:05:29,420
 something which can redirect
 
 2008
 01:05:29,420 --> 01:05:31,900
 the brain to become fully
 
 2009
 01:05:31,900 --> 01:05:32,740
 functional.
 
 2010
 01:05:34,750 --> 01:05:37,350
 The limit is the sky, right?
 
 2011
 01:05:37,350 --> 01:05:38,750
 Brilliant, right? Now let's
 
 2012
 01:05:38,750 --> 01:05:40,510
 move on to ethics of patient
 
 2013
 01:05:40,510 --> 01:05:41,430
 samples. We started.
 
 2014
 01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:42,390
 Obviously, this is all about
 
 2015
 01:05:42,390 --> 01:05:45,220
 ethics. Let's talk about. L
 
 2016
 01:05:45,220 --> 01:05:46,620
 icencing I derivatives and
 
 2017
 01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:48,860
 consent. So this is aimed at
 
 2018
 01:05:48,860 --> 01:05:49,820
 you Mariana. What can go
 
 2019
 01:05:49,820 --> 01:05:50,700
 wrong when publishing a
 
 2020
 01:05:50,700 --> 01:05:53,140
 patient sample? What is the
 
 2021
 01:05:53,140 --> 01:05:54,540
 right to the DNA for example?
 
 2022
 01:05:55,180 --> 01:05:58,100
 Oh God, I mean before I
 
 2023
 01:05:58,100 --> 01:05:59,180
 get myself in any kind of
 
 2024
 01:05:59,180 --> 01:06:00,660
 trouble here, I mean.
 
 2025
 01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:04,710
 There's, there's a million
 
 2026
 01:06:04,710 --> 01:06:06,550
 rules that we have to, we
 
 2027
 01:06:06,550 --> 01:06:08,550
 have to follow and when we
 
 2028
 01:06:08,550 --> 01:06:11,550
 publish DNA samples and
 
 2029
 01:06:11,550 --> 01:06:13,310
 they have to be the sequences
 
 2030
 01:06:13,310 --> 01:06:16,030
 have to be deposited in in
 
 2031
 01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:17,710
 repositories and they have to
 
 2032
 01:06:17,710 --> 01:06:20,420
 be. They
 
 2033
 01:06:20,420 --> 01:06:22,540
 can be public available or
 
 2034
 01:06:22,540 --> 01:06:23,700
 they can be protected. It
 
 2035
 01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:25,620
 depends on what the the
 
 2036
 01:06:25,620 --> 01:06:28,220
 journal requires or requests
 
 2037
 01:06:28,220 --> 01:06:30,790
 and. I
 
 2038
 01:06:30,790 --> 01:06:33,030
 think, I'm not entirely sure,
 
 2039
 01:06:33,030 --> 01:06:35,510
 but I think that nowadays IP
 
 2040
 01:06:35,590 --> 01:06:37,910
 protections on DNA are not
 
 2041
 01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:39,390
 possible anymore. So you
 
 2042
 01:06:39,390 --> 01:06:42,150
 cannot do that anymore. So
 
 2043
 01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:44,990
 it's a gene is a gene. So you
 
 2044
 01:06:44,990 --> 01:06:47,830
 cannot protect the the that.
 
 2045
 01:06:50,180 --> 01:06:52,220
 I, I, I believe that IPS that
 
 2046
 01:06:52,220 --> 01:06:53,700
 are related to
 
 2047
 01:06:54,380 --> 01:06:56,700
 findings with the
 
 2048
 01:06:57,460 --> 01:06:59,460
 with patient information are
 
 2049
 01:07:00,300 --> 01:07:02,660
 getting harder to get. And
 
 2050
 01:07:02,660 --> 01:07:05,580
 the reason is let's say I
 
 2051
 01:07:05,580 --> 01:07:08,300
 identify a signature of
 
 2052
 01:07:08,300 --> 01:07:09,820
 whatever of resistance,
 
 2053
 01:07:09,820 --> 01:07:11,100
 right? And I identified
 
 2054
 01:07:11,100 --> 01:07:12,580
 through a code or something
 
 2055
 01:07:12,580 --> 01:07:14,860
 like that that I have created
 
 2056
 01:07:14,860 --> 01:07:17,630
 or. I cannot protect the
 
 2057
 01:07:17,630 --> 01:07:19,550
 code because then the you
 
 2058
 01:07:19,550 --> 01:07:20,990
 know if you come in and you
 
 2059
 01:07:20,990 --> 01:07:22,590
 use the code and you change.
 
 2060
 01:07:23,300 --> 01:07:25,260
 Parts of that than the, the
 
 2061
 01:07:25,260 --> 01:07:26,300
 original code is not
 
 2062
 01:07:26,300 --> 01:07:29,220
 protected anymore. So I
 
 2063
 01:07:29,220 --> 01:07:31,780
 think, I think we have a bit
 
 2064
 01:07:31,780 --> 01:07:33,660
 of a of a grey of a grey
 
 2065
 01:07:33,660 --> 01:07:35,740
 zone. On the other hand, I do
 
 2066
 01:07:35,740 --> 01:07:37,900
 believe that this does favour
 
 2067
 01:07:37,900 --> 01:07:39,780
 better the interaction among
 
 2068
 01:07:39,780 --> 01:07:41,660
 scientists, meaning that I
 
 2069
 01:07:41,660 --> 01:07:43,420
 don't have to be so afraid of
 
 2070
 01:07:43,420 --> 01:07:44,620
 putting something out there
 
 2071
 01:07:44,620 --> 01:07:45,540
 because somebody's going to
 
 2072
 01:07:45,540 --> 01:07:47,140
 steal it. Because anyways,
 
 2073
 01:07:47,140 --> 01:07:49,580
 it's if I publish it, it will
 
 2074
 01:07:49,580 --> 01:07:52,110
 be. Made available for
 
 2075
 01:07:52,110 --> 01:07:53,470
 everybody. I mean, I make it
 
 2076
 01:07:53,470 --> 01:07:54,990
 a point of publishing all of
 
 2077
 01:07:54,990 --> 01:07:56,590
 the things that we publish as
 
 2078
 01:07:56,590 --> 01:07:58,420
 Open Access. So that
 
 2079
 01:07:58,420 --> 01:08:01,060
 everybody can have access to
 
 2080
 01:08:01,060 --> 01:08:03,990
 to it. But
 
 2081
 01:08:04,350 --> 01:08:07,110
 yeah, I, I, I find it
 
 2082
 01:08:07,310 --> 01:08:08,590
 difficult to answer your
 
 2083
 01:08:08,590 --> 01:08:10,630
 question, but it's it is
 
 2084
 01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:12,310
 because it there's no one
 
 2085
 01:08:12,310 --> 01:08:15,070
 answer to this, this
 
 2086
 01:08:15,070 --> 01:08:16,430
 question that you're asking.
 
 2087
 01:08:16,430 --> 01:08:19,230
 It's every every country does
 
 2088
 01:08:19,230 --> 01:08:20,590
 it still in a very different
 
 2089
 01:08:20,590 --> 01:08:23,030
 way. I think how we relate to
 
 2090
 01:08:23,030 --> 01:08:25,270
 IPS. Before Thomas and Steve
 
 2091
 01:08:25,270 --> 01:08:26,390
 jump in here, one other
 
 2092
 01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:27,270
 question related to this.
 
 2093
 01:08:27,270 --> 01:08:29,510
 There's can a patient. IP,
 
 2094
 01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:32,500
 their own DNA. And is
 
 2095
 01:08:32,500 --> 01:08:35,450
 that ethical?The
 
 2096
 01:08:35,450 --> 01:08:36,610
 answer to that is that I
 
 2097
 01:08:36,610 --> 01:08:37,930
 don't know if that's I, I, I
 
 2098
 01:08:37,930 --> 01:08:40,490
 don't know if a patient. I
 
 2099
 01:08:40,530 --> 01:08:42,210
 know that a patient can
 
 2100
 01:08:42,650 --> 01:08:44,930
 decide to not sign an
 
 2101
 01:08:44,930 --> 01:08:46,690
 informed consent and
 
 2102
 01:08:46,690 --> 01:08:48,610
 therefore none of the
 
 2103
 01:08:48,610 --> 01:08:50,130
 information that comes from
 
 2104
 01:08:50,130 --> 01:08:52,570
 that patient medical DNA,
 
 2105
 01:08:52,570 --> 01:08:55,250
 RNA, whatever can be
 
 2106
 01:08:55,250 --> 01:08:58,090
 used as a matter of fact, we.
 
 2107
 01:08:59,510 --> 01:09:01,430
 When we receive tissue from
 
 2108
 01:09:01,430 --> 01:09:04,070
 the clinic, we.
 
 2109
 01:09:04,940 --> 01:09:06,580
 Before we touch the tissue,
 
 2110
 01:09:06,580 --> 01:09:09,020
 we verify that there is or
 
 2111
 01:09:09,020 --> 01:09:10,940
 not an informed consent. If
 
 2112
 01:09:10,940 --> 01:09:13,180
 there is no informed consent,
 
 2113
 01:09:13,180 --> 01:09:14,500
 So if the patient has not
 
 2114
 01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:16,220
 signed that informed consent,
 
 2115
 01:09:16,380 --> 01:09:19,020
 we discard the tissue because
 
 2116
 01:09:19,020 --> 01:09:20,460
 we are not allowed even to
 
 2117
 01:09:20,460 --> 01:09:22,660
 store it in our freezer. So
 
 2118
 01:09:22,660 --> 01:09:24,700
 it's not it. It means that
 
 2119
 01:09:24,940 --> 01:09:27,380
 the patient said no. So it's
 
 2120
 01:09:27,780 --> 01:09:30,100
 so the patient is in charge.
 
 2121
 01:09:30,950 --> 01:09:32,830
 Of its tissue, but I don't
 
 2122
 01:09:32,830 --> 01:09:35,380
 know if the patient had. Pee
 
 2123
 01:09:35,380 --> 01:09:37,380
 it's tissue that I that that
 
 2124
 01:09:37,380 --> 01:09:38,700
 that I'm not sure Thomas
 
 2125
 01:09:39,660 --> 01:09:40,580
 thing have you got any
 
 2126
 01:09:40,580 --> 01:09:41,980
 comments on this or any views
 
 2127
 01:09:41,980 --> 01:09:43,980
 on this? Yeah, absolutely. I
 
 2128
 01:09:43,980 --> 01:09:45,260
 mean, the first of all, I
 
 2129
 01:09:45,260 --> 01:09:47,740
 think that we are have high
 
 2130
 01:09:47,740 --> 01:09:50,220
 ethical standards andthroughout scientific
 
 2131
 01:09:50,460 --> 01:09:50,940
 research.
 
 2132
 01:09:54,030 --> 01:09:55,390
 There's everything is done
 
 2133
 01:09:55,390 --> 01:09:57,350
 according to these standards,
 
 2134
 01:09:57,350 --> 01:10:00,110
 but. Science is
 
 2135
 01:10:00,110 --> 01:10:02,310
 developing so quickly and
 
 2136
 01:10:03,030 --> 01:10:04,590
 cells are there to stay in
 
 2137
 01:10:04,590 --> 01:10:06,830
 our freezers and we always
 
 2138
 01:10:06,830 --> 01:10:08,910
 have to review. Is this still
 
 2139
 01:10:08,910 --> 01:10:11,220
 covered?Is the intent of the
 
 2140
 01:10:11,220 --> 01:10:14,060
 patient really honoured if
 
 2141
 01:10:14,060 --> 01:10:15,420
 it's the new type of research
 
 2142
 01:10:15,420 --> 01:10:18,270
 we are doing?For example,
 
 2143
 01:10:18,550 --> 01:10:20,870
 it is no problem, we see this
 
 2144
 01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:23,350
 with 23andMe and others who
 
 2145
 01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:25,470
 suddenly find serial killers
 
 2146
 01:10:25,470 --> 01:10:27,270
 of the past because their
 
 2147
 01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:30,270
 relatives have given their
 
 2148
 01:10:30,270 --> 01:10:32,870
 DNA and the and allowed that
 
 2149
 01:10:32,870 --> 01:10:34,230
 scientific research can be
 
 2150
 01:10:34,230 --> 01:10:35,070
 carried out with this
 
 2151
 01:10:35,070 --> 01:10:37,630
 material. So you can really
 
 2152
 01:10:37,630 --> 01:10:39,430
 identify people nowadays.
 
 2153
 01:10:39,700 --> 01:10:41,860
 Based on the sequence of
 
 2154
 01:10:41,860 --> 01:10:43,740
 their genes, this was
 
 2155
 01:10:43,740 --> 01:10:46,220
 certainly not intended when
 
 2156
 01:10:46,420 --> 01:10:48,820
 when some people gave consent
 
 2157
 01:10:48,820 --> 01:10:51,260
 to to themselves being being
 
 2158
 01:10:51,260 --> 01:10:52,740
 produced. Can you then put
 
 2159
 01:10:52,740 --> 01:10:54,700
 this into the open? And this
 
 2160
 01:10:54,700 --> 01:10:56,100
 is these are very important
 
 2161
 01:10:56,100 --> 01:10:57,540
 questions. The IP question is
 
 2162
 01:10:57,540 --> 01:10:59,900
 however, also a bit
 
 2163
 01:10:59,900 --> 01:11:02,830
 outdated. I became
 
 2164
 01:11:03,070 --> 01:11:06,070
 a patents came in when we
 
 2165
 01:11:06,070 --> 01:11:08,270
 had very long cycles of of
 
 2166
 01:11:08,270 --> 01:11:10,110
 lifetime of of products.
 
 2167
 01:11:11,060 --> 01:11:13,580
 It's a 20 year process and
 
 2168
 01:11:13,660 --> 01:11:16,140
 the deal was you tell the
 
 2169
 01:11:16,140 --> 01:11:17,660
 world what how you do it
 
 2170
 01:11:17,780 --> 01:11:19,580
 instead of having a secret in
 
 2171
 01:11:19,580 --> 01:11:21,500
 in your manufacturing and in
 
 2172
 01:11:21,500 --> 01:11:23,580
 exchange you get a period
 
 2173
 01:11:23,580 --> 01:11:24,900
 where you can use it only and
 
 2174
 01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:25,940
 then everybody can use it
 
 2175
 01:11:25,940 --> 01:11:26,980
 because it's well known.
 
 2176
 01:11:28,060 --> 01:11:30,140
 Nowadays science is changing
 
 2177
 01:11:30,140 --> 01:11:31,980
 so quickly that patents on
 
 2178
 01:11:31,980 --> 01:11:33,580
 software typically make no
 
 2179
 01:11:33,580 --> 01:11:36,420
 sense on most biological
 
 2180
 01:11:36,420 --> 01:11:38,140
 things make no sense. They're
 
 2181
 01:11:38,140 --> 01:11:40,260
 only done for the pride of
 
 2182
 01:11:40,260 --> 01:11:42,490
 the. Of the researcher to add
 
 2183
 01:11:42,490 --> 01:11:44,370
 to his publication list also
 
 2184
 01:11:44,370 --> 01:11:47,170
 some patents or for investors
 
 2185
 01:11:47,330 --> 01:11:48,370
 because they live in the
 
 2186
 01:11:48,370 --> 01:11:50,290
 illusion that because the
 
 2187
 01:11:50,290 --> 01:11:52,130
 biotech owns some some
 
 2188
 01:11:52,130 --> 01:11:53,850
 patents, they will be able to
 
 2189
 01:11:53,850 --> 01:11:55,570
 do exclusively something.
 
 2190
 01:11:56,730 --> 01:11:57,930
 Patents have become more
 
 2191
 01:11:57,930 --> 01:11:59,810
 hindering than enabling in
 
 2192
 01:11:59,810 --> 01:12:01,690
 recent time. Everything is
 
 2193
 01:12:01,690 --> 01:12:03,730
 clustered with with with
 
 2194
 01:12:03,730 --> 01:12:05,010
 patents and you have no
 
 2195
 01:12:05,010 --> 01:12:07,220
 freedom to act. I think we
 
 2196
 01:12:07,220 --> 01:12:08,460
 have to rethink the system
 
 2197
 01:12:08,460 --> 01:12:11,420
 for biotech and and and and
 
 2198
 01:12:11,860 --> 01:12:14,180
 and computational approaches
 
 2199
 01:12:14,420 --> 01:12:15,940
 to give a different way of
 
 2200
 01:12:16,020 --> 01:12:17,700
 acknowledgement of ownership.
 
 2201
 01:12:18,570 --> 01:12:19,650
 That's interesting. So what's
 
 2202
 01:12:19,650 --> 01:12:21,690
 your thoughts? Well, this is
 
 2203
 01:12:21,930 --> 01:12:23,770
 a very, I think this is a
 
 2204
 01:12:23,770 --> 01:12:25,170
 very topical discussion. I'm
 
 2205
 01:12:25,170 --> 01:12:28,010
 thinking so, so, so Thomas,
 
 2206
 01:12:28,010 --> 01:12:28,810
 if I was going to play
 
 2207
 01:12:28,810 --> 01:12:30,490
 devil's advocate regarding
 
 2208
 01:12:30,490 --> 01:12:33,130
 the IP and so forth, what
 
 2209
 01:12:33,130 --> 01:12:34,730
 about like a drug company
 
 2210
 01:12:35,890 --> 01:12:38,290
 who who spent billions on
 
 2211
 01:12:38,650 --> 01:12:40,330
 on a product and and wants
 
 2212
 01:12:40,330 --> 01:12:42,330
 to, wants to.
 
 2213
 01:12:43,180 --> 01:12:44,180
 Be the only one who makes
 
 2214
 01:12:44,180 --> 01:12:45,820
 money on that and they they
 
 2215
 01:12:45,820 --> 01:12:47,020
 want to protect it with a
 
 2216
 01:12:47,020 --> 01:12:48,340
 patent. How would you argue
 
 2217
 01:12:48,340 --> 01:12:50,970
 that that is?That is also
 
 2218
 01:12:51,850 --> 01:12:53,490
 hurting the science in that
 
 2219
 01:12:53,490 --> 01:12:56,250
 part. No, this is much less
 
 2220
 01:12:56,250 --> 01:12:57,770
 so because this is a
 
 2221
 01:12:57,770 --> 01:13:00,490
 substance specific thing, so
 
 2222
 01:13:00,490 --> 01:13:02,610
 we don't have a problem with.
 
 2223
 01:13:04,500 --> 01:13:05,900
 Your third generation, 5th
 
 2224
 01:13:05,900 --> 01:13:07,340
 generation aspirin is is
 
 2225
 01:13:07,340 --> 01:13:09,780
 going to be yours for a while
 
 2226
 01:13:09,860 --> 01:13:12,620
 until to recuperate
 
 2227
 01:13:12,620 --> 01:13:14,300
 the the money you you
 
 2228
 01:13:14,300 --> 01:13:15,420
 invested which is more than
 
 2229
 01:13:15,420 --> 01:13:16,820
 two billion on average. So
 
 2230
 01:13:16,940 --> 01:13:18,580
 it's really a lot of money
 
 2231
 01:13:18,740 --> 01:13:20,540
 and the enterprise would not
 
 2232
 01:13:20,540 --> 01:13:22,250
 work without protection. But
 
 2233
 01:13:22,250 --> 01:13:24,450
 we have a lot of now process
 
 2234
 01:13:24,450 --> 01:13:26,570
 patents because you cannot
 
 2235
 01:13:26,730 --> 01:13:28,610
 patent genes. So you patent
 
 2236
 01:13:28,610 --> 01:13:30,050
 what you do with the gene
 
 2237
 01:13:30,290 --> 01:13:32,010
 and, and, and these are
 
 2238
 01:13:32,010 --> 01:13:34,450
 things where it is
 
 2239
 01:13:34,450 --> 01:13:36,210
 typically not difficult to
 
 2240
 01:13:36,210 --> 01:13:38,130
 circumvent certain steps. And
 
 2241
 01:13:38,130 --> 01:13:39,770
 then you have then you have
 
 2242
 01:13:39,770 --> 01:13:40,930
 all these discussions. Is
 
 2243
 01:13:40,930 --> 01:13:42,890
 this now a derivative is
 
 2244
 01:13:42,890 --> 01:13:44,210
 dependent on the on the
 
 2245
 01:13:44,210 --> 01:13:46,610
 primary patent. It is almost
 
 2246
 01:13:46,610 --> 01:13:48,290
 impossible to find all of the
 
 2247
 01:13:48,290 --> 01:13:49,610
 different patents you might
 
 2248
 01:13:49,610 --> 01:13:52,290
 possibly bridge. And that's
 
 2249
 01:13:52,290 --> 01:13:54,290
 where it really gets murky.
 
 2250
 01:13:54,770 --> 01:13:56,650
 And I and I think we need to
 
 2251
 01:13:56,650 --> 01:13:59,210
 find a way of not spending.
 
 2252
 01:14:00,980 --> 01:14:03,540
 Millions every university on
 
 2253
 01:14:03,700 --> 01:14:05,380
 protecting stuff which is
 
 2254
 01:14:05,380 --> 01:14:06,700
 only hindering work of
 
 2255
 01:14:06,700 --> 01:14:09,020
 others, but it's not enabling
 
 2256
 01:14:09,020 --> 01:14:10,300
 something as it originally
 
 2257
 01:14:10,300 --> 01:14:11,380
 was intended. Yeah, that's
 
 2258
 01:14:12,300 --> 01:14:14,380
 great. No, Well, thank you.
 
 2259
 01:14:14,380 --> 01:14:15,700
 Look, that's pretty much
 
 2260
 01:14:15,700 --> 01:14:16,780
 covered all the topics that
 
 2261
 01:14:16,780 --> 01:14:17,980
 we wanted to talk about today
 
 2262
 01:14:17,980 --> 01:14:18,900
 and we've been talking for a
 
 2263
 01:14:18,900 --> 01:14:19,980
 quite long time, but is time
 
 2264
 01:14:19,980 --> 01:14:22,250
 has flown. So I'm going to
 
 2265
 01:14:22,250 --> 01:14:23,130
 conclude now. We're just
 
 2266
 01:14:23,130 --> 01:14:24,450
 asking you like we did last
 
 2267
 01:14:24,450 --> 01:14:26,010
 month. And Thomas, you can
 
 2268
 01:14:26,010 --> 01:14:26,810
 join us in this little
 
 2269
 01:14:26,810 --> 01:14:28,810
 conversation about what your
 
 2270
 01:14:28,810 --> 01:14:29,930
 plans are for the coming
 
 2271
 01:14:29,930 --> 01:14:31,010
 month. So Mariana, where,
 
 2272
 01:14:31,010 --> 01:14:32,290
 where can people meet you in
 
 2273
 01:14:32,290 --> 01:14:33,530
 person and what are you going
 
 2274
 01:14:33,530 --> 01:14:34,570
 to be learning about in the
 
 2275
 01:14:34,570 --> 01:14:36,970
 next month or so? The
 
 2276
 01:14:37,010 --> 01:14:38,890
 next month, a couple of
 
 2277
 01:14:38,890 --> 01:14:40,450
 months, I will, I mean, until
 
 2278
 01:14:40,450 --> 01:14:41,690
 the end of November, I will
 
 2279
 01:14:41,690 --> 01:14:44,570
 be in there. So I will try
 
 2280
 01:14:44,570 --> 01:14:46,130
 to actually get some workdone.
 
 2281
 01:14:48,940 --> 01:14:50,100
 Well, that's good to hear.
 
 2282
 01:14:50,100 --> 01:14:52,060
 All right. And Stephen, what
 
 2283
 01:14:52,060 --> 01:14:54,450
 about you?Yeah, well, after a
 
 2284
 01:14:54,450 --> 01:14:56,290
 little trip to Liverpool this
 
 2285
 01:14:56,290 --> 01:14:58,730
 weekend, I'm I'm talking
 
 2286
 01:14:59,130 --> 01:15:00,330
 at a conference there and I'm
 
 2287
 01:15:00,330 --> 01:15:01,970
 going to try to see some,
 
 2288
 01:15:02,050 --> 01:15:03,330
 like I mentioned last time,
 
 2289
 01:15:03,330 --> 01:15:05,370
 some some Beatles memorabilia
 
 2290
 01:15:05,370 --> 01:15:08,370
 stuff. But other than that,
 
 2291
 01:15:08,370 --> 01:15:09,970
 I'm going to be hanging out
 
 2292
 01:15:09,970 --> 01:15:11,770
 in Oslo, Norway. So if
 
 2293
 01:15:11,770 --> 01:15:13,130
 anybody interested in
 
 2294
 01:15:13,130 --> 01:15:14,690
 organoids wants to come is in
 
 2295
 01:15:14,690 --> 01:15:16,890
 Oslo, then drop me an e-mail
 
 2296
 01:15:16,890 --> 01:15:18,250
 or whatever. All right, and
 
 2297
 01:15:18,250 --> 01:15:20,450
 tell us how many more talks
 
 2298
 01:15:20,450 --> 01:15:22,490
 are you doing in the next two
 
 2299
 01:15:22,490 --> 01:15:23,530
 months You've done?Haven't
 
 2300
 01:15:23,530 --> 01:15:25,130
 you already in the last year
 
 2301
 01:15:25,130 --> 01:15:26,330
 or so you say? So how many
 
 2302
 01:15:26,330 --> 01:15:27,410
 more you got to do the next
 
 2303
 01:15:27,410 --> 01:15:29,210
 couple of months? I have two
 
 2304
 01:15:29,210 --> 01:15:30,250
 more today, so.
 
 2305
 01:15:32,940 --> 01:15:34,460
 I know this. I'm at the
 
 2306
 01:15:34,460 --> 01:15:35,940
 moment a global citizen
 
 2307
 01:15:36,300 --> 01:15:38,020
 either by virtual
 
 2308
 01:15:38,020 --> 01:15:39,380
 contributions like this one
 
 2309
 01:15:39,380 --> 01:15:41,420
 or by in person once. There's
 
 2310
 01:15:41,420 --> 01:15:43,300
 so much to do, but I'm, I
 
 2311
 01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:46,260
 mean, I was waiting 30
 
 2312
 01:15:46,260 --> 01:15:47,540
 years of my life that people
 
 2313
 01:15:47,540 --> 01:15:48,380
 want to hear me.
 
 2314
 01:15:50,820 --> 01:15:52,530
 You can't do like that. I
 
 2315
 01:15:52,570 --> 01:15:54,050
 think it is important that
 
 2316
 01:15:54,050 --> 01:15:55,490
 our messages at the moment
 
 2317
 01:15:55,490 --> 01:15:57,010
 are reaching an audience as
 
 2318
 01:15:57,010 --> 01:15:58,250
 we have not seen before.
 
 2319
 01:15:58,490 --> 01:16:00,130
 Microphysiological systems
 
 2320
 01:16:00,130 --> 01:16:01,650
 , organised AI, organised
 
 2321
 01:16:01,650 --> 01:16:04,010
 intelligence,
 
 2322
 01:16:04,690 --> 01:16:06,250
 but also other topics like
 
 2323
 01:16:06,570 --> 01:16:08,410
 green chemistry, toxicology,
 
 2324
 01:16:08,410 --> 01:16:10,490
 evidence based things, all of
 
 2325
 01:16:10,490 --> 01:16:11,570
 them are flourishing at the
 
 2326
 01:16:11,570 --> 01:16:14,130
 moment. So I'm, I'm, yeah,
 
 2327
 01:16:14,170 --> 01:16:16,610
 I'm, I'm a happy guy.
 
 2328
 01:16:17,140 --> 01:16:18,340
 That's what you're trying to
 
 2329
 01:16:18,340 --> 01:16:19,340
 say. So it was good to hear.
 
 2330
 01:16:19,580 --> 01:16:20,460
 Well, look, Myra's actually
 
 2331
 01:16:20,460 --> 01:16:21,620
 sent me some questions for
 
 2332
 01:16:21,620 --> 01:16:22,460
 you, but I'm going to ask
 
 2333
 01:16:22,460 --> 01:16:23,580
 these questions to all of you
 
 2334
 01:16:23,580 --> 01:16:24,740
 this very quick fire once
 
 2335
 01:16:25,180 --> 01:16:28,180
 just. Alternative multiple
 
 2336
 01:16:28,180 --> 01:16:29,930
 choice. So I'm going to start
 
 2337
 01:16:29,930 --> 01:16:31,370
 with you, Mariana. Beer or
 
 2338
 01:16:31,370 --> 01:16:34,170
 wine? Beer or wine? Wine.
 
 2339
 01:16:37,100 --> 01:16:39,540
 Steve, this weekend, beer.
 
 2340
 01:16:40,620 --> 01:16:42,900
 All right, Mariana pizza or
 
 2341
 01:16:42,900 --> 01:16:44,740
 pasta? Pasta.
 
 2342
 01:16:45,420 --> 01:16:48,100
 Thomas pizza. David
 
 2343
 01:16:48,660 --> 01:16:50,540
 pasta. You had to think about
 
 2344
 01:16:50,580 --> 01:16:52,860
 it. Marianna. Guitarro,
 
 2345
 01:16:52,860 --> 01:16:54,780
 Drums. Drums.
 
 2346
 01:16:55,380 --> 01:16:57,260
 Thomas, guitar. Oh, what are
 
 2347
 01:16:57,260 --> 01:16:58,260
 you getting, Steve?
 
 2348
 01:17:01,730 --> 01:17:02,970
 Well, let me answer the
 
 2349
 01:17:02,970 --> 01:17:04,330
 guitar, all right. And
 
 2350
 01:17:04,330 --> 01:17:07,210
 finally, Mariana Rock,
 
 2351
 01:17:07,210 --> 01:17:09,250
 musical, classical rock
 
 2352
 01:17:09,250 --> 01:17:11,090
 music, Thomas Rock,
 
 2353
 01:17:11,890 --> 01:17:14,050
 Stephen, Rolling Stones,
 
 2354
 01:17:14,050 --> 01:17:16,940
 Doors. All
 
 2355
 01:17:17,620 --> 01:17:20,300
 that stuff today, you guys,
 
 2356
 01:17:20,300 --> 01:17:21,100
 if you've heard that you
 
 2357
 01:17:21,100 --> 01:17:21,780
 don't have to start a
 
 2358
 01:17:21,780 --> 01:17:22,660
 conversation, if you don't
 
 2359
 01:17:22,660 --> 01:17:23,260
 want to talk about
 
 2360
 01:17:23,260 --> 01:17:24,260
  organisation, where you can
 
 2361
 01:17:24,260 --> 01:17:25,140
 talk about whoever you're
 
 2362
 01:17:25,140 --> 01:17:25,940
 meeting, you know what to
 
 2363
 01:17:25,940 --> 01:17:27,100
 start the conversation about,
 
 2364
 01:17:27,420 --> 01:17:29,410
 Look. Well, look. Mariana
 
 2365
 01:17:29,410 --> 01:17:30,890
 Steven Thomas, it's been
 
 2366
 01:17:30,890 --> 01:17:31,650
 lovely to see you again.
 
 2367
 01:17:31,650 --> 01:17:32,530
 Thomas, thank you very much
 
 2368
 01:17:32,530 --> 01:17:33,370
 for being our guest today.
 
 2369
 01:17:33,370 --> 01:17:34,810
 It's been really interesting.
 
 2370
 01:17:35,010 --> 01:17:36,570
 So viewers and listeners, I
 
 2371
 01:17:36,570 --> 01:17:37,850
 hope you've enjoyed this. If
 
 2372
 01:17:37,850 --> 01:17:39,610
 you have, make sure to like
 
 2373
 01:17:39,610 --> 01:17:41,530
 and subscribe at your
 
 2374
 01:17:41,530 --> 01:17:42,970
  favourite podcast and
 
 2375
 01:17:42,970 --> 01:17:44,450
 YouTube channel for future
 
 2376
 01:17:44,450 --> 01:17:45,650
 episodes. And please let
 
 2377
 01:17:45,650 --> 01:17:48,290
 Mariana Stephen Thomas and
 
 2378
 01:17:48,290 --> 01:17:50,610
 myself with any feedback. In
 
 2379
 01:17:50,610 --> 01:17:51,610
 fact, I forgot to ask you,
 
 2380
 01:17:51,610 --> 01:17:52,650
 Mariana Steven, did you get
 
 2381
 01:17:52,650 --> 01:17:53,850
 any feedback to the podcast
 
 2382
 01:17:53,850 --> 01:17:55,170
 that we did last month? And
 
 2383
 01:17:55,170 --> 01:17:57,340
 did anybody?Comment I did
 
 2384
 01:17:57,340 --> 01:17:58,500
 actually, a lot of people
 
 2385
 01:17:58,500 --> 01:18:00,060
 heard, I got a lot of emails
 
 2386
 01:18:00,060 --> 01:18:01,460
 by people saying, oh, there's
 
 2387
 01:18:01,460 --> 01:18:03,060
 a podcast, you're on it.
 
 2388
 01:18:04,090 --> 01:18:05,570
 Good, I'm glad to hear it.
 
 2389
 01:18:05,570 --> 01:18:06,930
 And so hopefully Thomas, I
 
 2390
 01:18:06,930 --> 01:18:08,410
 mean, you must get millions
 
 2391
 01:18:08,410 --> 01:18:09,690
 of emails every day anyway.
 
 2392
 01:18:09,770 --> 01:18:10,970
 So we'll hopefully add to
 
 2393
 01:18:10,970 --> 01:18:11,770
 those though about the
 
 2394
 01:18:11,770 --> 01:18:13,770
 podcast. So look, if you have
 
 2395
 01:18:13,770 --> 01:18:16,050
 got any topics that you'd
 
 2396
 01:18:16,050 --> 01:18:17,770
 like us to cover in future
 
 2397
 01:18:17,770 --> 01:18:20,290
 podcast, please feel free to
 
 2398
 01:18:20,290 --> 01:18:22,050
 get in touch with us with the
 
 2399
 01:18:22,050 --> 01:18:23,730
 comments below the podcast or
 
 2400
 01:18:23,730 --> 01:18:25,290
 message us on LinkedIn or via
 
 2401
 01:18:25,290 --> 01:18:26,170
  e-mail or however you like
 
 2402
 01:18:26,170 --> 01:18:27,250
 to do it, which would love to
 
 2403
 01:18:27,250 --> 01:18:28,490
 cover those topics in future
 
 2404
 01:18:28,490 --> 01:18:29,770
 episodes. And if you haven't
 
 2405
 01:18:29,770 --> 01:18:31,530
 registered yet for Word plus
 
 2406
 01:18:31,530 --> 01:18:34,490
  2025. Which is on February
 
 2407
 01:18:34,490 --> 01:18:36,490
 the 11th of 13th near
 
 2408
 01:18:36,490 --> 01:18:38,130
 Cambridge next year. Make
 
 2409
 01:18:38,130 --> 01:18:39,130
 sure you do the link for that
 
 2410
 01:18:39,130 --> 01:18:40,690
 will be above this podcast as
 
 2411
 01:18:41,130 --> 01:18:42,130
 well. So all of you, it's
 
 2412
 01:18:42,130 --> 01:18:43,010
 been lovely to see you all
 
 2413
 01:18:43,010 --> 01:18:43,890
 again. Tom, it's been lovely
 
 2414
 01:18:43,890 --> 01:18:44,730
 to meet you for the first
 
 2415
 01:18:44,730 --> 01:18:46,570
 time. It's been a fascinating
 
 2416
 01:18:46,570 --> 01:18:47,890
 discussion, genuinely
 
 2417
 01:18:48,130 --> 01:18:50,170
 learning all about organise
 
 2418
 01:18:50,170 --> 01:18:52,370
 and the brain. So I look
 
 2419
 01:18:52,370 --> 01:18:53,330
 forward to learning more
 
 2420
 01:18:53,330 --> 01:18:54,730
 about this both in future
 
 2421
 01:18:54,730 --> 01:18:55,930
 podcasts and meeting you all
 
 2422
 01:18:55,930 --> 01:18:57,050
 in person. Not too distant
 
 2423
 01:18:57,050 --> 01:18:58,690
 future viewers and listeners.
 
 2424
 01:18:58,690 --> 01:19:00,090
 Thank you very much. Until
 
 2425
 01:19:00,090 --> 01:19:02,140
 next time. Stay well and stay
 
 2426
 01:19:02,140 --> 01:19:03,540
 safe. Bye bye from all of us.
 
 2427
 01:19:03,540 --> 01:19:06,220
 Bye. Bye from Mariana. Yes,
 
 2428
 01:19:06,300 --> 01:19:09,210
 Thomas, bye, bye. And
 
 2429
 01:19:09,210 --> 01:19:10,290
 for me, bye bye.
 
 2430
 01:19:12,660 --> 01:19:14,180
 And that's a wrap, everybody.
 
 2431
 01:19:14,660 --> 01:19:17,260
 So hopefully you enjoyed it
 
 2432
 01:19:17,260 --> 01:19:18,060
 and it was all good.
 
 2433
 01:19:20,380 --> 01:19:23,140
 Fantastic. Well, thank you.